Barb VanEsseltine is retired from a long career as an IT Project Manager. She is passionate about her volunteer work with gun violence prevention efforts in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and she shows her dogs in dog agility competitions. In this episode, she shares her experience of hormone-receptor positive breast cancer, which was treated with a lumpectomy followed by radiation therapy. She discusses the process of tapering off of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) as a precaution against future cancer recurrence, and dealing with a resurgence in post-menopausal symptoms as a result. She takes an attitude that health challenges are inevitable for all of us, which allows her to stay focused on treatment and recovery, and which gives her compassion for what others may be suffering from that we are not even aware of.
Contact Femammal:
If you have feedback or want to be a future guest, please get in touch!
Logo design: copyright Darragh Hannan
Barb VanEsseltine is retired from a long career as an IT Project Manager. She is passionate about her volunteer work with gun violence prevention efforts in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and she shows her dogs in dog agility competitions. In this episode, she shares her experience of hormone-receptor positive breast cancer, which was treated with a lumpectomy followed by radiation therapy. She discusses the process of tapering off of Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) as a precaution against future cancer recurrence, and dealing with a resurgence in post-menopausal symptoms as a result. She takes an attitude that health challenges are inevitable for all of us, which allows her to stay focused on treatment and recovery, and which gives her compassion for what others may be suffering from that we are not even aware of.
Contact Femammal:
If you have feedback or want to be a future guest, please get in touch!
Logo design: copyright Darragh Hannan
[00:17] Greer:
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Barb VanEsselltine is retired from a long career as an IT project manager. She is passionate about her volunteer work with gun violence prevention efforts in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and she shows her dogs in dog agility competitions. In this episode, she shares her experience of hormone receptor positive breast cancer, which was treated with a lumpectomy followed by radiation therapy. She discusses the process of tapering off hormone replacement therapy as a precaution against future cancer resurgence and dealing with a resurgence in postmenopausal symptoms as a result. She takes an attitude that health challenges are inevitable for all of us, which allows her to stay focused on treatment and recovery, and which gives her compassion for what others may be suffering from that we are not even aware of. Welcome, Barb thank you so much for joining us today to talk about your experience of breast cancer. I was wondering if you could share the story of how you first got diagnosed with breast cancer in 2021.
[01:47] Barb:
Okay. Thank you, Greer. I'm happy to be here. Well, I have an annual mammogram, and I think maybe I started doing that when I was 40 or something, but when I had my mammogram, it showed lumps in both breasts. So that was the clue that started this whole thing rolling along. And that was what, back in July of 2021?
[02:12] Greer:
And then what did they find? I assume you had a biopsy on both of the lumps. What did they learn from that?
[02:21] Barb:
Well, they didn't even bother with the one false positive. I think that there was probably a sonogram or something in there where they decided that one of them was nothing. So they had zeroed in on the left breast and yeah, they did a biopsy and came back and said, oh yeah, it's positive.
[02:43] Greer:
Okay. And did they give you more information at that point? Like, did they say you've got a stage, whatever whatever?
[02:51] Barb:
Yeah, I'm sure that they did. And this is going to sound like I don't really care, but I tried not to pay that much attention to this is stage three, which means such and such, or this is stage one, which means; I just let them tell me what it meant. So I don't know how it was staged, I just didn't pay that much attention to it.
[03:17] Greer:
Sure, yeah. What were some of your first reactions to getting that news?
[03:22] Barb:
Well, it's hard to explain because my stepmom had two different lumpectomies and it didn't have any impact on her at all. But then I have a dear friend who had a terrible breast cancer experience, but she was much younger at the time. She was in her early 30s, and that is often a difficult experience. So I was thinking this should be okay.
[03:54] Greer:
That's a great attitude to have going in. How did you find the right treatment providers for you? Did they just immediately set you up with someone who could decide what the best treatment path would be for you?
[04:10] Barb:
Well, here in Kalmazoo, you kind of fall into that. There are two major hospital systems, but my primary doctor is associated with one of them, and it was pretty much, okay, we don't like this mammogram. We sent it off to be read, and it looks bad. So I'll send you to the further diagnostic people that are within our group, the Luce Hospital associate group. And once you start there, you just keep on with the same people. That works out okay. For this kind of purpose, there isn't, I don't think, a significant difference between the two hospital groups.
[04:53] Greer:
Yeah, that's great. And how did they present your treatment options to you? Or how did they put together a plan with you?
[05:00] Barb:
They create, obviously, a lot of this is you pull from here, pull from there. Very nice looking three ring binder your breast cancer today kind of thing. And they pulled together the ones that described the kind of thing they thought I had and basically said, it isn't one of the genetic ones. We keep reading about where people are having prophylactic mammographies. Good heavens. And there's really no reason to believe that a lumpectomy would not be as successful as mastectomy. And pretty much as soon as I hear that, I think, okay, I'm good. If you can say the lumpectomy is as good as a mastectomy, then let's just take out the minimum amount and go forward like that.
[05:54] Greer:
Yeah. And then did you know going in that there might be follow up after the lumpectomy? Based on what they saw during that procedure?
[06:02] Barb:
Yes, but I did not have the experience that apparently was common 30 years ago where I went in, and I didn't even know if I would have a breast coming out again.
[06:13] Greer:
Oh, wow.
[06:15] Barb:
Years ago, they used to do that, but now they don't. I mean, I knew it was lumpectomy. They were going in. I'm losing my vocabulary to describe surgery that they just do with, like, two little holes.
[06:31] Greer:
Laparoscopic surgery?
[06:33] Barb:
Yes. Thank you.
[06:34] Greer:
Okay.
[06:35] Barb:
That's how they did it. So, I mean, there's basically nothing to it. There's two little holes here, two little holes there, and they took out the lump that they were aiming at, and they took out a couple of lymph nodes just to be sure, I assume.
[06:51] Greer:
Were you put under for it, or was it local anesthesia? I don't know how lumpectomies are handled.
[06:57] Barb:
No, I was put under for it. It was not a general anesthetic. It was the kind they run into your veins, and then you don't remember anything about what happened after that for a long time. Great.
[07:10] Greer:
Yeah. So what was the recovery from that like? Were you in the hospital overnight? Or were you able to go home?
[07:16] Barb:
Oh, heck no. I had to have somebody else drive me, but that was about it. That's great. Yeah. No, it really is not, the laparoscopic surgery really is just not that terrible as far as the surgery part goes. Then you wait for a while while they're doing all this testing.
[07:37] Greer:
And do you notice any visual difference after you have a lumpectomy, or is it just negligible?
[07:43] Barb:
Yeah, I wish. If you're looking at it, they went in from the side, and so there's like a kind of a scarred dimple on that side. And I also think it's interesting because normal scars that you have from falling down on your knees when you're a kid or whatever turn white. And I kind of expected this to do that, but it didn't. It's still kind of a funky purpley gray color, and it's a little bit dimply, but it's no big. It doesn't sit weird in my bra or anything like that.
[08:20] Greer:
That's great.
[08:21] Barb:
Yeah.
[08:23] Greer:
And then so you went home after the procedure. That's wonderful. Did they tell you what follow up there would be or what additional investigation they would have to do to decide on the next steps for your treatment plan?
[08:36] Barb:
Oh, yeah. And when we were first talking to the cancer surgeon, he said, you're going to feel like you never get rid of me because we'll see you like, a week after it and a month after it, and another month, and then three months, and he's right, I can't get him out of my life. So, yeah, you're constantly seeing them. My memory, although it's not that good, is that about a week or two after the surgery, I came in and they explained that they had done this test and that test, and they were confident that the margins were good. They had a description of it as hormone positive something something, and they were confident that chemotherapy would not be effective on this particular cancer. And I know lots of people who've had chemotherapy and just terrible, terrible, terrible. So when they said, no, we're just going to do radiation for 20 days, I was like, cool, I'll come in first thing in the morning.
[09:43] Greer:
I'm so amazed by your attitude through all of this. You just have such a no-nonsense, I can manage this, and I really love that. I think I need to take more of that attitude towards some of my own health hiccups.
[09:58] Barb:
Well, thank you, Greer. To a certain extent, I guess, now that I'm old, you don't really have any choice. You might as well have a positive attitude because you just kind of keep walking forward anyway. Kind of how I see it.
[10:13] Greer:
Sure. Yeah. And so when they say the margins are good, does that mean that they feel like they got the whole tumor, but things can come back? So that's the purpose of the radiation is to prevent things from coming back?
[10:26] Barb:
Yeah, I mean, they say that the margins are good. That means they're pretty sure they didn't leave a big chunk of it behind. If they were 1000% sure, then you wouldn't do the radiation. So there must be some tiny amount. I talked to the guys about it because I thought if it's like 98% or 98.5%, I'm not going to do 20 days of radiation for a 0.5% increase in safety. But it was significant. They just do that statistically. People that had the surgery and no radiation. People that had the surgery with radiation. What are the outcomes?
[11:07] Greer:
Yeah, that makes sense. And you mentioned the words sorry, hormone reactive positive, I think. Yeah. Can you explain what that means?
[11:17] Barb:
Well, as I said, to the extent that I paid attention, understood. Basically the tumor is growing aided by estrogen in your body. And since I was postmenopausal, the only way I had estrogen in my body was I was taking hormone replacement therapy. And my oncologist is convinced that that basically causes some breast cancers.
[11:47] Greer:
Did you have any sense when you first went on hormone replacement therapy that that might contribute to issues later or was there any education around that at the time?
[11:58] Barb:
Probably not at the time, because at the time was quite a long time ago. I think that I started menopause at about 50 or 51, and within nine to twelve months I was pounding down my doctor's door saying, I have a real job, I have to work with all these people. I can't be jumping up and running outside during the winter and all these other things. I'm not getting any sleep. The menopausal symptoms just never went away. So she said, she my doctor, something along the lines of, well, the only thing that we know that really works is hormone replacement therapy. I said sign me up. And then after five years, I went in and she said, we really don't like people to be on this for more than five years. And I said, okay, well, we'll start tapering it off. And I tapered it off and tapered it off. And the symptoms came roaring back. And I just called her up and said no. So I knew that I had been on hormone replacement therapy a great deal longer than was medically recommended.
[13:10] Greer:
Have you had that recurrence of the postmenopausal symptoms now? Because you've obviously had to go off now so that you don't get a recurrence of the breast cancer. Have you found anything that works for your present situation?
[13:26] Barb:
No, not really. It is significantly better than it was. One of the drugs I'm taking, the purpose of it is to suck up any spare estrogen in your body. So I'm at rock bottom on estrogen and I have hot flashes, I have night sweats. I hate that a lot. I have had some insomnia off and on. I will say that it is better now than it was in January last year because then it was awful. It was like, not acceptable. And we've now tried a whole series of different things which sometimes help people. And right now I'm on one that I guess is better than nothing. So that's kind of where I am with that.
[14:19] Greer:
Is your doctor able to give you any confidence that you'll really resolve those symptoms with time? Or is it just kind of an open ended question at this point?
[14:29] Barb:
Well, you know, it's an open ended question at this point. And if you happen to eventually develop an interest in menopause, you'll discover that the thing that the doctors have been saying to us all these men doctors all these years has been, oh, they're not that big a deal. And they usually go away in about a year, when, in fact, a good third of the people have significant symptoms more than five years.
Greer:
Wow.
Barb:
Yeah. I said to some nurse somewhere that I was coming in to see somebody because of hot flashes, and I got this little humph noise and I thought, you honey aren't old enough yet. You just wait and see.
[15:21] Greer:
Yeah, we don't talk enough about menopause. And I have a lot of ignorance in that area, so I'd love to learn more and interview some folks for a later episode. I mean, I'm kind of wondering now, gosh, could you be in like your 80s or 90s and still experiencing postmenopausal symptoms? That would be awful.
[15:38] Barb:
Yes, that would be awful. And it could be there are people that that's true of and I don't have the numbers in front of me. I just read and got mad because of the implication that, oh, sure, it's no big deal, and it goes right away. Seems like a paternalistic there, there, run away and don't bother me with your women problem.
[16:00] Greer:
Right. And I'm sure it's one of those areas that with more research funding and more attention, there could be better and better remedies, but it just hasn't been prioritized well.
[16:15] Barb:
And if you think about it, I'm not sure I would prioritize it either, because that would be prioritizing slightly happier environment for a few older people when there's an awful lot of other things that are not going very well that I would prioritize ahead of that.
[16:36] Greer:
Although with our lifespans getting longer and longer, it becomes such a huge part of your life. It could be like a full one third of your lifespan as a woman. And that's a lot.
[16:47] Barb:
That would be a long time not sleep well and get up every day and try and drink a cup of coffee and then be so darn hot that you can't finish it.
[16:56] Greer:
Yeah. And I really worry about our society not prioritizing wellness for older Americans already. And I think that's another example. Sorry, I digress. So, circling back, I don't know a whole lot about radiation therapy, and I think there's several different formats. What format did your radiation therapy involve?
[17:20] Barb:
Well, you know, it was kind of a cute experience. You go in and they fit you for a custom plaster cast of your head and shoulders so that in the future, when you lie on this cast, just so it'll be exactly the same every time. And then they aim their little things they made two tiny weeny invisible dots on my skin which are theoretically still there, but which you can't tell from a freckle. And they line these things up so they know exactly how they're going to do it. And then when you actually arrive to have radiation performed, they get out your particular head and shoulder model. You lie down on this table, they take a couple of test shots to make sure they've lined up all the dots. Then everybody jumps out of the room except you. They buzz it a couple of times and you go home. The whole thing takes ten minutes if they're doing well that day.
[18:25] Greer:
So are you in a machine?
[18:29] Barb:
Sort of. You're lying down on basically a bed, and above you is this humongous machine with it's kind of science fictiony looking. It's got these things for like, ray guns pointing toward you.
[18:42] Greer:
And is your head in that plaster cast that they made for you, or is that just so that they can line things up?
[18:50] Barb:
It's just to hold you still. It doesn't feel like, it's just behind you. You don't feel encased.
[18:58] Greer:
Oh, okay. I was picturing something that just felt very claustrophobic.
[19:02] Barb:
No, this is just so that they can have you lie down in your shoulders and your head are exactly where they want them.
[19:08] Greer:
Okay, so you're lying back in sort of a pillow bed set up made just for you, and you're holding perfectly still while this ray gun fires at you.
[19:21] Barb:
Basically something like that. It actually kind of starts on one side and it goes up kind of like over the St. Louis arch and comes back down again on the other side making a funny noise.
[19:32] Greer:
Okay, wow. And you said it only takes like ten minutes or something?
[19:36] Barb:
Oh, yeah, it doesn't take long at all. They shoot you three or four times. Each time you have to hold your breath, be very still, and then you're done.
Greer:
Wow. Yeah.
Barb:
So I had mine set up to be the first thing in the morning. So 07:00 in the morning. So you buzz in there, they give you a new mask, you come in, boom, you're first up. You go down, there's three or four of these little suites. You go down to one of them, they set you up, you give your name and your birthday about five times to make sure they're the right person, and then they do it and you're out.
[20:12] Greer:
And are you going in five days a week?
[20:15] Barb:
Yes, it was five days a week, but because it was November, I figured I would just skip the last two because it was Thanksgiving and the day after. And they said no, come Monday and Tuesday. So that last week was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, pause, pause, pause. Monday, Tuesday.
[20:35] Greer:
So you took a victory lap at the end?
[20:37] Barb:
Yeah, basically.
[20:38] Greer:
And then how do they assess whether that was good enough or they got it all or it did what they needed it to do?
[20:46] Barb:
I don't think they do. I don't think that there's anything they can measure before and after.
[20:54] Greer:
Okay. So it was more precautionary. It was that statistical decision they made.
[20:58] Barb:
Exactly.
[21:00] Greer:
Okay. And I know people have different symptoms related to radiation therapy. It affects some people more than others. Did you find it really affecting you?
[21:09] Barb:
No. I was very fortunate because there are some people their skin, it peels and it hurts, and it's terrible. And with only 20 days, toward the very end, it was starting to get a little bit tender because it, like, tans and then starts to burn like a sunburn. But mine ended before the symptoms got bad at all as far as on my skin. The other thing that really surprised me was that I was very tired. I don't know why this would make me so tired, but it really did knock me back.
[21:45] Greer:
Sure. And you made that joke about your doctor. You can't get rid of them when you're going in. Are they essentially trying to assess whether any cancer has returned? And if so, what does that assessment look like?
[21:59] Barb:
Well, they always, always do a breast exam. They always want to look at it so they can admire the scar that is fading. They always want to ask and make sure. I had to laugh when I was first released, they gave me Marigold cream. This is from some holistic company, and Marigold is in the Holistic Dictionary of Active Stuff. I just looked at this nurse and I thought, oh, you can do that with a straight face? She continued with a straight face: Yes. This is very helpful.
[22:39] Greer:
What did they say it was supposed to do?
[22:41] Barb:
It's just good for your skin. Yeah.
[22:46] Greer:
I wonder if it has a lot of vitamin E in it. I know vitamin E helps with scar tissue.
[22:51] Barb:
Maybe. Or maybe the Marigold company gives it to them for free, and they have a boatload of it. Perfectly nice little kind of hand, creamy stuff. So I rubbed that on for a while.
[23:05] Greer:
Okay. I mean, it seems unobjectionable, at least.
[23:08] Barb:
Yes, that's true. It does. It's just that when you read it and it's telling you about all the marvelous things that marigolds are good for, really. Okay.
[23:17] Greer:
And are they having you do extra mammograms?
[23:21] Barb:
Yeah. In fact, just this past week, I went in and had an MRI done with and without contrast. And I think it's because it's been a little bit more than a year since we finished up everything. Now, the MRI for that purpose was quite claustrophobic because you're in the tube machine for a long period of time. Yes. And it makes huge loud noises. I don't know why the MRI machine is so noisy, but they put earphones on your ears to try and prevent you from going deaf. But still, there's not that big a deal. You just lie there. It takes 30 minutes or so.
[24:06] Greer:
And did they say how long you have these kind of extra surveillance activities? Is this just forever now, or are you clear after five years or something?
[24:17] Barb:
I really don't know. I was surprised that they did an MRI, to be honest with you. I was not expecting that. There are two kinds of mammograms. There's the regular kind, which I have been having, and then they have one they call a 3D mammogram. And I've been told that in the future I should always get the 3D kind. So I said, okay. But the MRI was a surprise. We've had that done once before, I think before we even did the surgery. And I didn't expect to do another one, but it was just boring, really.
[24:55] Greer:
Okay, so what's the kind of emotional impact of these additional tests and things that are always kind of lurking for you?
[25:06] Barb:
I can put that kind of thing out of my head completely. I was really quick to take this from the category of, oh, this is a problem. I have this cancer thing, to, okay, it's gone out. Not to worry. So that's really where I am with it. I expect them to tell me if they find anything, but I don't really expect them to. And if they do, well, I survived the lump thing before. I can do it again. It's kind of where I am.
[25:35] Greer:
Yeah, that's really amazing. Did you feel like experiencing breast cancer impacted your sense of identity at all, or your self image?
[25:47] Barb:
No, I don't really think so. Lumpectomy really doesn't have that big an impact on your physical appearance. Hence not with a self image. A mastectomy, I think, is much more difficult for people.
[26:08] Greer:
I think some people really come to embrace a survivor identity. Did that become something that you really appropriated or did you just kind of have a different way of thinking about all of this?
[26:26] Barb:
I just don't find that that kind of label is particularly helpful, at least to me. I didn't find the whole experience to be terrible or gripping or now, of course, I have a pretty ideal support system. I have my husband, I have my kids, I have my friends, and my dogs, and I don't feel that I'm on my own. And that's a big help.
[27:00] Greer:
Yeah, that's so important. Did you find yourself reaching out to other friends or people in your life who had experienced breast cancer to kind of strengthen those connections when you were going through it?
[27:16] Barb:
Sort of what I did was there's a bunch of us that are part of the dog agility environment, that we have our own little Facebook place called Michigan Agility, and we put stuff there that is not always just about the dogs. And so I threw it out there. And then I got stories back about other people that I know has experienced with cancer. And these are all people that are running around and doing things, many of them older than me. And I'm, like, perfect. That's all good. So it's not so much that I solicited the conversation, but I put it out there and I got back the comments. This is no big. It'll be fine.
[28:06] Greer:
Yeah. Hearing other people's perspectives and knowing that they've come through it, that can be so helpful.
[28:13] Barb:
Well, exactly. And as I said, my step mom went through two of these. I remember knowing about the first one and sending a card or calling, whatever, and the second one was right before my daughter Carolyn's first marriage. And I didn't know about it at all. I didn't know about it. It was like the week before she had the surgery, and she just showed up for the wedding, and I didn't hear about it until after, way after. She was like, oh, it wasn't that big a deal.
[28:46] Greer:
Oh, wow.
[28:47] Barb:
And I thought okay, Mom, I guess I understand how this works.
[28:53] Greer:
Yeah. Do you feel like she kind of impacted your own attitude around these medical experiences?
[29:00] Barb:
Absolutely. And we were never in my family much for, oh, I have this terrible thing, or I have that terrible thing. I have chronic this and terrible that. It's like, yes, everybody's got something.
[29:17] Greer:
Yeah. That perspective I found really helpful lately, reflecting on everyone has something that really helps to keep one's own experiences in perspective.
[29:27] Barb:
Well, exactly. And a lot of times you don't even know what their something is, and then you find out later in some weird, roundabout way, and you're like, well, that was amazing, and I had no idea. Yeah. Part of my strategy for coping with people that I find to be difficult is to remind myself that I have no idea what's going on in their life or very little idea. And it could be pretty terrible, so I try and cut them some slack.
[30:04] Greer:
Yeah. That is such an important disposition to have. Did you feel like you learned anything from this experience that you'd like to share?
[30:13] Barb:
Well, aside from the thing about HRT, but, you know, I will tell you the honest to God truth, I would do it exactly the same way again. I bought myself years and years of not thinking about it at all, and it was worth it. Otherwise, I don't know. I think that the one thing that I did do that was a pretty good plan was I did take notes, dates and things that happened. Maybe not as perfectly as I could have, but I've known from other people's experience and other earlier experiences of my own, that if you don't write down exactly what happened, when you will not remember, and you will be off by months or you won't know what really happened. And later on, people are going to ask you what happens and you won't know. And medical people will ask you and you won't know.
[31:08] Greer:
Yeah, that's great advice. I think I spend an entire hour sometimes when I do intakes for new doctors because they have these long questionnaires they want you to fill in and they always want dates that stuff happened. And I'm digging through five years of Google calendars on my phone trying to figure out dates that things happened. So I love your idea of writing it down in one place.
[31:32] Barb:
Well, especially once you're starting on some particular medical thing. I am chasing down this cancer thing. Well, we better keep track of it. And also the other reason why that's important is because the liaison between the doctors or among the doctors is not very good. And eventually you go back to your GP, or whoever it is that your regular doctor, the person you go to with a sore throat, and they want to know what happened, and they don't always have access to what happened. So it helps if you can tell them.
[32:07] Greer:
Yeah, that's a really good point and that was a really interesting reflection on hormone replacement therapy and the sort of risk benefit analysis I don't think I truly sought in terms of risk benefit and health care as much before the pandemic versus during the pandemic. I think it was something that we as a society started becoming a lot more cognizant of and intentional about and that it's something that you can truly come to your conclusion about. Like if, if this experience of having years of relief was really worth it to you, then that analysis is definitely something that you own.
[32:50] Barb:
Yeah, exactly. And you're right. I think people have gotten smarter about it or at least have been willing to think about it. I think it's really important when somebody says something like if you do XYZ, you are twice as likely to die of whatever, but if your likelihood is already teeny tiny well, twice teeny tiny is still teeny tiny, so I try to be smart about that kind of thing.
[33:21] Greer:
Yeah, that's a great point. And especially it's important to keep in mind that we are seeing more studies about hormone replacement therapy and we get more research and knowledge about it as the years go by. So it's hard to make sweeping statements about it. And I think people want really pat answers that apply to everybody. But it's not like that. I mean, it raises the risk for some cancers, but not all. And if you're having extreme symptoms like you were, it's a risk benefit analysis that comes down to an individual level and is not something that we can easily make a global statement about and that's a hard reality to live in sometimes.
[34:04] Barb:
Well, exactly, I agree with that 100%. But you make these kinds of decisions every day and you make them when you decide to have pizza for dinner instead of chicken breast and broccoli or whatever, when you decide that you're too tired to take a walk. All those kinds of health decisions that you make are impacting you, just that some of them are bigger.
[34:31] Greer:
Yeah. And some of those things we forget are health decisions like should I go to bed at 10:00 p.m.. or 11:00 p.m.. Tonight is a health decision in some way. And we don't always think about it in those terms.
[34:43] Barb:
Well, exactly. And I get a kick on the sleeping thing because I know that I went for years and years when I was working with 6 hours of sleep. That was just all the time in my life that I had for sleeping. And then after I retired, I'm like, oh, eight is nice. Perhaps with a nap. You got to understand what's working for you at any given point in time also.
[35:11] Greer:
Yeah, sure. Has there been unexpected joy along the way that you'd like to share with us?
[35:18] Barb:
Well, the thing about it is that I never felt like I was a cancer patient. But people go out of their way to be really nice to cancer patients. I mean, I was getting this radiation therapy in November and so it's getting cold and there are these little hats that some little group was knitting to make available for cancer patients so their heads didn't get cold. And I don't actually know where these vegetables came from, but there were vegetables. Help yourself to a vegetable. And all the people that were treating me that I was seeing every day when I was coming in for all this radiation, they're so cheerful and they're so upbeat and I appreciate that a lot. There's a lot of people out there we hear about burnout, we hear about this and that, but there are a lot of people out there that are just smiling and doing their job.
[36:13] Greer:
Yeah, that's something I've noticed so much accessing health care the last couple of years because on the one hand, you know how much stress the whole health system is under and individual healthcare workers are under. But then on the other hand, my experiences when I go in are almost universally lovely. People are kind and polite and they just want things to go the best way they can for you and it's so wonderful to be cared for in that way when you are sick.
[36:45] Barb:
Oh yeah, exactly. And that's been my experience also, especially in the nursing kind of things. Like you're lying there waiting for something to happen and you're half dressed and then they come along and they bring you this nice warm blanket. Oh, that's lovely. Thank you so much.
[37:04] Greer:
Yes, exactly. I mean, you spend most of your time interacting with people who aren't physicians. They're techs or they're nurses assistants or they're nurses, and just their demeanors can make your whole day better.
[37:18] Barb:
Exactly. I agree. Exactly. And of course, when you're dealing with a cancer like this, it's all planned as opposed to showing up in the emergency room at 02:00 in the morning.
[37:31] Greer:
True. Yeah. Very different interaction.
[37:34] Barb:
Exactly.
[37:36] Greer:
Well, I really appreciate this conversation, and I have to ask you one more question, which I always ask my podcast guests, and that is, what advice do you have about listening well to our bodies?
[37:48] Barb:
Yeah, I saw that question. I am not a good person to ask that question because I don't think that I do listen well to my body. I think that's something I can learn to do better, maybe. So I don't think I have good advice, but thank you for asking.
[38:11] Greer:
Well, I actually love hearing that because it gives me the sense of, like, we're all continuing to learn and that we all still have more time to learn, and it's something that we can each continue to grow into over time.
[38:27] Barb:
Yeah, that sounds great.
[38:29] Greer:
Well, thank you so much. This has been a really wonderful conversation.
[38:32] Barb:
Oh, well, thank you, Greer.
[38:39] Greer:
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com. That's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.