Femammal
Femammal
Discomfort and Anxiety with Sexual Intimacy
Eleni Economides is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in the state of NY, an AASECT Certified Sex Therapist and a Certified Life Coach through The Life Coach School. She runs a full private practice where she sees individuals and couples for relationship and sex therapy, and a coaching practice where she helps women with low libido manage stress around sex and develop sexual confidence so they can relax in the bedroom and enjoy the intimacy and pleasure that they deserve. Eleni has been married for 15 years and has three children. She loves being a student of the human mind, spending time with friends and family, and traveling. She is passionate about helping women embrace imperfection and learn how to love themselves unconditionally. She offers listeners these resources:
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[00:18] Greer:
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Eleni Economides is a licensed marriage and family therapist in the state of New York, an AASECT Certified Sex therapist and a certified Life Coach through the Life Coach School. She runs a full private practice where she sees individuals and couples for relationship and sex therapy, and a coaching practice where she helps women with low libido manage stress around sex and develop sexual confidence so they can relax in the bedroom and enjoy the intimacy and pleasure that they deserve. Eleni has been married for 15 years and has three children. She loves being a student of the human mind, spending time with friends and family, and traveling. She is passionate about helping women embrace imperfection and learn how to love themselves unconditionally. And if you listen to the end of this episode, you can not only hear my smoke detector going off, but you can also hear about a special offer Eleni has extended to podcast listeners for a free coaching session with her. It's a great conversation, and I hope you enjoy it as much as the dinner I enjoyed that my husband was cooking downstairs while we recorded. Welcome, Eleni. I'm so excited that you are here to talk to us today about discomfort and anxiety with sex. I think this topic is so important, and it's a topic that people very often want more information about, but maybe they're not comfortable having conversations. So it's really helpful when you can listen to someone else having a conversation. So thanks for being our conversation partner today.
[02:21] Eleni:
Thank you for having me, Greer.
[02:22] Greer:
So could you start by telling us a little bit about your role and how you came to your work?
[02:30] Eleni:
I've been a licensed marriage and family therapist for a while now. I actually came to the US--I'm originally from Greec--to get my Masters, so I came to the US, I got my Masters, and I worked for a couple of years in community mental health, and then I got married. And I decided to stay home for a few years to have my children and sort of go through that phase and focus there. And after about six years, the time had come for me to go back. I felt like I was missing that part of my identity, the therapist part, the sort of like professional part. And I decided to go back to work by starting my own practice because that would allow me to make my own hours and still be available for my three young children. But at the same time, I was already starting to experience this struggle in my own marriage where the sparkle had worn off and routine had settled in. I was struggling with this identity of being a woman and a mother and kind of getting in a rut myself with how I felt about that part of my identity. And then I decided I'm going to go back to work and work with couples because I felt that that was the help that I needed. I needed to understand that better for my own situation but also help couples that were in a similar position, sort of younger couples. Then as I was doing that a year or two into that it became very obvious to me that sex was a very big part of the conversation that we were not having. Couples would come to couples therapy hoping that they were going to fix their communication and their connection, and then that would just make their sort of, like, fix their sex life or make it better or somehow couples believe, or most of us believe that just feeling connection and having better communication is just going to translate into the bedroom. And even though there is some truth to that, that's not of course the case. So that's how this idea of becoming a certified sex therapist came about. So I knew that I had my own discomfort talking about sex and I was experiencing my own struggle in that area in my life. So I wanted to find out more, I wanted to learn more to understand it. So I got my certification in sex therapy and that brought, the rest is kind of history. Then I became a certified sex therapist and that really helped get more momentum in my couple's therapy when I increased my comfort, my own comfort talking about sex and couples. Really it's still a struggle for a lot of couples to understand that those two are connected. Communication and connection and sex, but they're not dependent upon each other. Does that make sense?
[06:11] Greer:
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I love that your own desire to dive into something that was a little bit vulnerable in your own life has now really borne fruit for other people who are struggling.
[06:26] Eleni:
Yeah, it feels like it's just been just a self healing and self growth journey for me that I'm still on that path and it keeps, keeps sort of like growing. Now I'm also a certified life coach and it allows me to reach more people than what my mental health license allows for. I'm only licensed in the state of New York and I find that the more I talk about--I see people and couples--the more I sort of witness this struggle that women have around their sexual identity and how it's sort of like not really decided by them. We sort of hear and learn about sex through a very inadequate sexual education system and then the rest we learn from peers and we hear stories, and pornography. We just don't get to decide why we have sex, why we want it or not. It just feels very conflicting topic, written with a lot of shame and just assumptions and myths. And I find women really struggle because of that. And I want to just start unpacking this and helping women just free themselves of that burden to fit in a box that somehow society has decided that's the best way to do it.
[08:22] Greer:
Oh, I totally agree. So one message that our culture really sends us is a simplistic message about what sex should look like. It has a heavy emphasis on spontaneous desire and on vaginal penetrative sex. Even though that's a very heterosexual, patriarchal model of sex. Women wind up feeling bad when that doesn't work for them. So what should we know that can help us to deconstruct this monolithic, patriarchal view of human sexuality?
[08:53] Eleni:
You mentioned spontaneous sexual desire, and I want to sort of like, spend a couple of minutes clarifying that for people that might not really know what that is. Is that okay?
[09:04] Greer:
Yeah, please do.
[09:06] Eleni:
So spontaneous sexual desire is one of the two kinds of sexual desire. The other kind is the responsive sexual desire. Spontaneous sexual desire means you sort of feel kind of horny and you're thinking about sex and you want to have it, and you have that energy in your body. Okay. You're sort of like libido that you know it's there. Now, responsive sexual desire is what happens when you encounter some sexual stimulation. Whether it is you hear something erotic, you see something sexual, or you start to become stimulated yourself by a partner or by yourself. It doesn't matter. So your body starts to respond sexually after you become aroused, after you start to encounter the sexual stimulation. And I want to clarify this, not clarify, I want to emphasize this because people believe that the healthy kind of desire is the spontaneous one. And that is a myth in that they're both very equally healthy and normal and equally valuable. But because we don't get to hear about responsive desire as one of how our bodies work, we assume that when that happens, it's not the right way. So we kind of got to find the old way back and we got to fix it. This is especially important for women because for the majority of women, responsive desire is the main way they sexually function. We sexually function. And of course, I don't want to over generalize here, but it's also how older people manage to enjoy sexual pleasure throughout their, you know, through their 80s and sometimes 90s. Because spontaneous desire, there is a limited, let's say, amount that we have off. So I just wanted to put that in there and clarify why it's important. I'm thinking it's also kind of answering your question. We are told that also intercourse is the way we do it. And it's only one of the ways. If the reasoning behind it is to procreate, to have children, yes, you probably need to do that, even though nowadays there's many other ways to have children without penetrative sex as well. But I think it comes from this. Also misinformation that I guess the lack of emphasis on how sex can be pleasurable and why we have it. There is emphasis on intercourse because somehow it's connected with I don't even know how. I guess it's sort of like because of our bodies and how they're made historically, the heterosexual perspective is you have a vulva, a vagina and you have a penis, and those two fit together, so therefore, that's how we do it. But obviously, it's very limiting to just think that that's what how we're made of. Did I answer your question?
[12:49] Greer:
Yeah. I think some people are already sighing with relief that they maybe realize that there's a broader view of what normal is and that their experience is valid too. Even if it's not the experience that we primarily see in media or that peers talk about. Especially in that way that people have of not wanting to be vulnerable and wanting to fit in with what the dominant narrative is. So I think it's helpful to understand everything that you just explained.
[13:22] Eleni:
Yeah. And you kind of said, if it doesn't work for people intercourse, what other ways there are to experience sexual intimacy and pleasure if vaginal intercourse does not work? And sometimes, of course, I think it's important to, if there is a reason why this doesn't work, that it is related to some sort of, perhaps pain or discomfort. I think just as a sex therapist, I feel like I need to mention this, that sex should not hurt, should not feel painful. If it does, it's something to be looked at as to why. And if that's the reason one does not want to have penetrative sex, they need to understand why it's painful because there could be a condition that needs to be addressed. But if the reason why somebody doesn't want to is for some other reason, then of course there's so many other ways to sexually connect. Oral sex, anal sex, just outer-course, manual stimulation, masturbation. The sky's the limit.
[14:40] Greer:
Thanks for highlighting that. When women aren't enjoying sex or find themselves avoiding it, what are some signs that maybe it's related to anxiety?
[14:50] Eleni:
Well, for both men and women, but let's stay with women, sexual anxiety is another way to say performance anxiety. Okay. So the way it feels is like being in your head and not being able to stay present and relax with what's happening in the moment. So kind of just having this mental chatter. It can be before sex, during sex, or after sex, right? During sex, it can sound like, am I doing this right? Am I taking too long? Is he getting bored? Is she enjoying this? It's sort of like just observing in a heightened way what's happening, and we sort of get out of our bodies and we can't feel the pleasure and the arousal we disconnect that's one way it looks like while one is having sexual sort of performance anxiety and they're in their head. That's part of anxiety. Now before, meaning when one is not in a sexual moment, sexual anxiety could sound like, I don't want to be naked, or I don't feel comfortable being naked, or if it was up to me, I wouldn't be having it. It has to do with how, I guess, we understand why we have sex and the things that we believe around it now. We sort of are raised to think of sex as something that's kind of dangerous. Like don't get pregnant, don't get an STD. Best way to do this is to just abstain. But we're also taught that it's a drive, sort of like of course, for men, sometimes "they can't control it." It's just so much like of misinformation and conflictual information. Sex is a drive, so you should have it if you're normal. But also you should try to control yourself because it's dangerous. And if you like it too much, you might be immoral as a female, especially because somehow men have the permission to like it. Right? So there you have it. You have a woman who kind of hasn't decided for herself why she might want to or not to have sex. She's been told how she should feel and think about it. And now there is a partner and they want to engage sexually and she knows it. I'm saying all of this to kind of get to the point that this mental baggage that exists there before one starts to explore their sexual self in action really impacts the development of sexual confidence and comfort and their ability to experience spontaneous desire. That mental baggage takes away from actually experiencing sexual desire and libido. And oftentimes women just don't think they have that. They never had it. But the reason is that there's so much anxiety around it that one just never gets to relax enough and let that desire develop.
[18:45] Greer:
That was so articulate, and I think that resonates for so many people who are listening right now. So when this baggage is getting packed over decades, potentially, how do we start unpacking that kind of baggage?
[18:58] Eleni:
Well, I think it depends on the phase of life that people are in. There's a group of let's say what I encounter is like, young women in sort of, they struggle with this issue because they find themselves trying to sort of find that one person and be in a relationship so that then they can find their partner for the rest of their life. I know I'm over generalizing. Please, this is coming from my experience with therapy and couple therapy, so definitely it sounds very binary, but I don't want to be misunderstood. When I'm thinking about, when I'm talking about women trying to find a partner to create a family, I'm over generalizing here. I hope that is clear. So there's this group of young women that kind of are in this phase where they don't really know what they want. They just think they should like it and want it because that's what is portrayed in social media. And they struggle because they realize they're just pushing themselves to have it because they want to win a partner. And there is a lot of anxiety with I don't know if I can keep this up. I've lost a partner because I couldn't keep it up. Now I'm in the second or third relationship and I'm realizing that this is not working. Like, for me, I'm sort of either pretending or pushing myself to do something that so then they go to therapy and they start to unpack--Therapy or coaching--and they start to unpack. And hopefully--unfortunately, something bad has to happen, by that I mean a breakup or something--that would bring people to the point that say, okay, now I need help. And the same is true for women that after having children or being in a long term relationship, then the spark goes away and they sort of get into that second or third phase of a relationship where spontaneous desire is lower. They have access to responsive desire, but they think it's a problem. They don't utilize it from a place of power and strength. They think it's sort of an afterthought. And they're also in the same place. They're worried about the future of their relationship if they cannot keep it up. So when women decide that I have to do something about this because my life like it's taking too much mental space for me to be thinking how can I buy myself time? How can I sort of make this lack of desire of mine or anxiety disappear and not be obvious to other people? And then the distress becomes big enough that they decide to, okay, what's going on with me? And why is this happening? And then they start to unpack all the sexual means that they believe in and all the perhaps obviously so many women have encountered some sort of sexual trauma and sexual violation that also is a component of this. But I think I want to say it can be easier than women think once they decide to take control of their own sexuality. Once a woman decides to do that, just the sky opens up and she can decide who she wants to be in a conscious way. But somehow we rarely get to that point on our own.
[23:02] Greer:
Yeah, there's so much there. One thing you made me think about is the gap between what we intellectually understand and then how we actually feel. So a woman could intellectually make the decision that she wants to be in charge of her sex life and explore what she actually enjoys and rewrite these scripts, but then she might still feel the anxiety or the discomfort. So how might we come to make that shift? So that what we're intellectually coming to. Maybe we're getting to a better place with our thoughts, but then how can that help us bridge to actually reconstruct how we feel so that we can actually enjoy what we're trying to enjoy?
[23:48] Eleni:
What a great question. I have a couple of responses for it. So obviously you're talking about kind of rewiring your brain because our brain is now wired a certain way. Think of these as sort of like survival thoughts. We have that primitive part of our brain that says this is what you need to do to stay safe. People, you shouldn't experience rejection, you shouldn't experience being criticized. You should be safe. So these thoughts about staying safe, sex is part of them. What will other people think? And how should I do? What's the right way to do this? So this part might never go away because we cannot get rid of our survival brain. It's hardwired. And we have this thing called the motivational triad that says you got to stay comfortable, you got to avoid danger, you got to be safe. And you just preserve your energy for whenever you need it. So these thoughts around staying safe sexually and not making yourself uncomfortable are going to be there. We have to meet them in a conscious, deliberate way with what we know intellectually. And the more we do this, the easier it gets, the more we stop yelling at ourselves for having these thoughts and sort of embrace them as part of our survival brain. It's there to protect me, but I don't have to listen to it because now I am old enough, I'm an adult and I can protect my own self. I don't need my survival brain to do that for me and I don't need to stay in a cave. That's the beauty of coaching, right? Because some of this it's not a matter of therapy really. It's not related to trauma or some sort of mental health diagnosis or disorder. All of this is so normal. We all have it. I want people to know this. And for some people it's sex, for other people it's work. For other people it's confidence and money. And we all have this kind of survival brain telling us what we shouldn't do and how we should handle things but empowering our progressive brain and that intellectual part that we then use to quiet down the survival brain and develop trust in ourselves that we can be okay even if we are uncomfortable. The worst thing that can happen to us is a feeling that we don't like. But we can handle feelings and if we know how to process them and just take care of ourselves through a negative feeling, there's nothing wrong with having it. So that's the beauty of coaching. And I think it's very, I wish everybody had a coach and could sort of pass these moments with more support and just normalize it a bit.
[27:14] Greer:
Are there some tools or exercises that we can use to adjust our thoughts around those competing messages and those competing feelings we might have?
[27:30] Eleni:
I don't know if you want to call it a tool, but something that I have found very helpful is to actually answer the questions that my brain offers me with an answer that is more of a yes or a no. For example, what if this happens? Okay, when we have questions in our brain, like a survivor brain, give us questions. What if this happens? What if that happens? This is going to be terrible. To kind of actually answer that, is this going to be terrible? Yes or no? What if this happens? What's the worst thing that can happen? Truly, actually answer our brain, this is the worst thing that can happen. And do I want to, I don't want to use risk because it sounds dangerous. Do I want to give it a chance and see if this potential negative outcome is worth the potential positive outcome, or do I just want to assume that the worst thing can happen? Does it make sense what I'm saying? Answer your questions. Answer the questions that your brain is offering and just have a more of a realistic perspective. Does that make sense?
[28:55] Greer:
Yeah, I think that does because it sort of takes the fangs out of those questions and maybe opens up a bigger space for imagination about what could happen and maybe something positive could happen. And why is the negative outcome worth your attention more than the positive outcome is worth your attention?
[29:13] Eleni:
That's right. And it can also bring more awareness when you ask, let's say, so what? From a place of just, so what if this happens? Okay, let's say it happens. So what's the problem here? If that happens, it helps you develop more awareness and where there is potentially some work to do to sort of hold oneself in a bit of a sort of higher regard. And most of the time, our fears are just primitive fear of rejection and fear of failure. Those are primitive fears that often come from this place of, I'm going to call it a projection. I hope your listeners can understand what I mean by that. It's our own insecurities projected onto others. We fear that others will think and feel about us what we might not feel comfortable with ourselves. And it opens up this sort of door for self exploration and developing more self love and self compassion, really answering those, those questions of that that our primitive brain offers, how it it opens up the possibility to start loving ourselves more and allow it to be imperfect and worthy and lovable because of it rather than the opposite.
[30:47] Greer:
Yeah, that's beautiful and hopeful. Maybe could you give us an example of some misinformation or a negative message that you had internalized about sex and then how you were able to rewrite the script as you made progress in your own journey?
[31:07] Eleni:
Okay, I'm going to give you this one because I think it's common and I think I'm still working my way through it. That's how deep this wiring is. So for me, it was this belief, and it's there, it's sort of in the background, that you have to love me first. That in order for me to be willing to, let's say it this way, give myself to you, you have to love me first. Somehow it wasn't right if the other person didn't really love me for who I was. So that's, I'm going to call this a myth because I think a lot of women and people believe this, that there has to be love and that it has to mean something very important before you can go ahead and engage in something sexual. And there is a great positive int it; I agree 50% and I disagree 50%. Because when that thought or belief is there, what ends up happening is our brain has this way of tricking us because then we can't relax enough to be who we are and let another person experience us so that then we can be convinced that they love us for who we are and they truly love us. Am I making sense to you so far?
[33:02] Greer:
That's interesting. I'd love to hear more.
[33:06] Eleni:
Okay. That's part of the sexual anxiety, right? The anxiety is there and now we're starting to monitor how we show up and are we going to be liked because of who we are or is this person sort of like wanting sex out of us? And women learn very early on how the power that they have around sex and how powerful that is, some women hate it. Some women love it. The power this sort of like to offer sex, to get sexual attention, to give sexual pleasure. We learn very early on how powerful that is for other people and what they see in us. So for me to sort of come back to your question, it became this thing where do you want me for me or do you want me for sex? You have to love me first before I engage in this, but also I am engaging in this because I know that's how you're going to like me. It became just a way to get attention and to get sort of validation and in my hopes at the time, love that then I put myself in this conundrum where I couldn't prove to myself that somebody wanted me for me and not for sex because I was having it and I was giving it in order to feel validated. It felt objectifying. But it sort of couldn't find a way out of this. I had to do it because it was expected of me. But then I felt like I was going against my own principle that you have to love me first. So it was a hot mess. It was a hot mess and really sort of realizing that and how I was creating that for myself. I mean, now you have to also understand a lot of people deal with this sexual discomfort and struggles with substances. And one way you know is when you resort to substances, whether it is alcohol or drugs, in order to relax enough to feel sexual. A glass or two of wine and there you're good to go. A puff of whatever, weed and then all of a sudden, no anxiety. So that's how you know that when you use substances to engage sexually, it's almost like a way to know that you have sexual anxiety. That was a parenthesis because that was also happening for me, which then I was using to beat myself up, right? I shouldn't have drank because now I did something that goes against my principle. So just understanding really I experienced a lot of shame and a lot of sort of self-deprecation for quite a while period of my life. And then when the time came for me, when actually the stakes were higher, I had to deal with this issue because it was either going to help me continue my marriage or break it. I knew that the stakes were so high for me at the time that I had to figure this out. And that's why I'm calling my professional journey, most of all, self healing and self growth. And for me, self coaching has been very, self coaching, I'm calling it self coaching, it's actually the kind of coaching that I use. It's a self coaching model. You sort of learn how to coach yourself through the process. And it's a way to just let your progressive brain shine and sort of quiet down this kind of primitive brain, the survival brain, and make more intentional decisions, conscious decisions decide ahead of time how you want to show up in a situation and how you want to treat yourself when the survival thoughts show up. And really being like an emotional adult and not allowing yourself to beat up oneself for having gone through trauma or experiencing some shame. Just learning to love oneself unconditionally with all the imperfection. That has been my self healing journey. And that's what I'm helping women do now in my work with sex and intimacy coaching.
[37:53] Greer:
Thanks for sharing all that. I think what I was hearing in your example related to, a person can set their boundaries where they want to set them, but in the end, you weren't able to center love because you were centering your anxiety around sex. And so it actually wasn't about the love as much as it was about your own anxiety. I'm wondering how did your life change after you came to those insights? What improved for you?
[38:25] Eleni:
My sex life has improved for sure. I can intentionally rely on my responsive desire to show up when I'm willing to engage with my partner sexually, whether I was planning on it or not. So my willingness to sort of let's see what's going to happen and my sort of embracing this uncertainty. Of it might show up, it might not show up. How do I want to handle this interaction with my partner? If responsive desire does not show up, how can I say no from a place of love? It just has improved the connection and just the anxiety has become minimal and it leaves so much more room for fun and playfulness, whether you actually end up having sex or not. Which, to tell you the truth, is not the end goal here to have like an orgasm. Once you can see that that's not the end goal, there's no pressure anymore. And I think not experiencing pressure has been the most the biggest gift that I gave myself through this process to just make a decision ahead of time, know my reasons behind why I'm doing something, even if it's because I want to love my partner and I want to show them that not because I feel horny and hot and sweaty. So it just feels more like I am the executive director of my own libido. I'm the CEO and I sort of dictated, are you going to show up today? Let's try. Maybe you won't show up, but I want you to show up. So I'm going to try and make it happen and you didn't show up. All right. Okay. I'll try again tomorrow. Or there you are. What are we going to do about that? Let's create a plan.
[40:38] Greer:
Yeah. I think you said something important when you said orgasm is not the end goal. Do you have a different way of defining the goal for yourself?
[40:47] Eleni:
Yes. And that's another thing that I think is very sort of like liberating. When people understand or really grasp in sex therapy that orgasm is not the goal. If really you wanted to have an orgasm, you could just use your hands and take care of yourself. What both men and women and female, male bodies, you want to have partner sex for another reason and it's not about the friction and the orgasm. You can do that anytime you wish if that was really what it was about. If you identify what it is about rather than the orgasm that you want to have partner sex for, you can do that without having an orgasm. You don't need an orgasm to experience love, connection, playfulness, feel desired, feel desire for someone, feel loved and cared for. The orgasm is sort of like the cherry on top that might come, might not come, but the cake is sweet and tasty anyways. If you can make that shift and understand and intentionally decide why you want to have partnered sex from a place of love for yourself, not because it's an obligation and a duty and otherwise your partner is going to leave you and they're going to cheat on you. That's a huge difference in the perspective behind why one wants to have partner sex. I think it just removes again so much that huge layer of anxiety and pressure that just allows for that orgasm to come more naturally in the end.
[42:39] Greer:
That's a really great perspective. Thanks for sharing all that. I'm wondering, so as you're a therapist and you're a coach, and people, when they come to you, are probably sorting through so much. They're sorting through a value system that they inherited and they are also trying to figure out which of those values they want to keep and which of those values they want to cast aside or develop into something else for themselves. They're probably struggling with a lot of feelings, maybe anxiety being one of them. They're probably struggling with a lack of information about sex. As you said, we have a sad state of sex education in this country. And maybe they're also struggling with a gap between what they want their intimacy to look like with a partner versus what they're actually experiencing, and they don't know how to cross that chasm. What do you do? How do you help people? What are some of the ways that your coaching allows people to open up and find new space in their lives?
[43:43] Eleni:
So, in my coaching, I specifically work with women experiencing low libido after having kids. But of course, that's a very specific population. A lot of us struggle with that issue. I think the first thing that I help women and people see is that our thoughts are the creator of our feelings, our thoughts and beliefs. And they are optional in that sometimes they're conscious and unconscious and the more consciously we choose them, the better we manage the results in our life. So I help people sort of understand the human mind. I educate about female sexuality. I bridge that gap. Once women have the correct information and the ability to sort of tame their mind, consciously choose what they want to believe, then the goal becomes finding the courage to take a chance and teach their partner what else works for them. But first they have to find that out for themselves and they have to love themselves, learn to love themselves enough to value that for themselves. And that's where most women struggle because we are raised to be caregivers and caretakers and somehow our pleasure is for somebody else because somebody else wants it and we sort of don't know how to take it back. And the more information we have, we can use it to our benefit. So I help women find the courage to take a stance and teach their partner what works for them, allow themselves to get to know what works for them. Deal with fear of rejection, deal with fear of failure. Like things not working out the way they thought that it should work out and just get closer to actually visualize the life they want to have and create a roadmap for how to get there, be intentional about it and grow through the process. That's the journey I take women through. And for me every time it adds another piece to my road of unconditional love for myself and humility for how this struggle is so universal and just putting my two cent into kind of bringing more love for women and toward themselves.
[46:52] Greer:
That's so great. I like what you were saying about our thoughts being optional and how our thoughts inform our feelings. I wonder if you could maybe help me unpack an example. So I'm thinking of maybe someone is really early on in exploring their sexual identity and they just feel silly because they have this image that the media has given us or maybe pornography has given us of what a sexually confident person looks like. And they just can't imagine that for themselves. So they're just like dealing with this feeling of silliness. Or maybe they are post having children and have a very different body as a result. Maybe they're feeling insecure about that body. They're dealing with those same sexual images that the media offers us and so they're feeling insecure. How do you take those initial thoughts of, oh, I feel silly, I feel insecure. My body doesn't look like what a sexual body is supposed to look like. I don't have that confidence. How do you flip that into a more helpful thought that can turn into a feeling of confidence.
[48:02] Eleni:
If one understands that our thoughts create our feelings, then that feeling silly and insecure goes back to a thought you're having about what's going on. Okay? Most of us, we have automatic thoughts that come quickly. And because they are so quick and automatic, we assume they're true. We assume they are facts. We assume that our thoughts and beliefs, our opinions are facts and true. So an example would be you said somebody is watching porn and I don't know, she's thinking, that's not me. I'm not like that. Okay? That thought can be read, can cause just a lot of shame. One of the feelings that it can cause, it can cause insecurity. It can cause let's call it insecurity. From this place of insecurity, a woman might decide to do things that like, let's say start, it could go both ways. When somebody feels insecure, they might start hiding themselves. And as an opportunity, they don't get to, I'm sorry, and as a result, they might not get to develop themselves to become who they want to be or go the other way where they start to make choices in order to try and become that other person that they see on TV that they had this thought, that's not me. I'm not like that. Then it compromises, sort of, the result you get is an inauthentic or incomplete development of our own self because of that thought. I'm not like that. And because of the insecurity that that thought creates and the actions we take because of that. Does that make sense?
[50:00] Greer:
Yeah, I think it does. And I think maybe you're also pointing out there was an assumption underlying that you need to be like that image.
[50:08] Eleni:
That you, that's right. Oh, I'm not like that. Oh my gosh, should I be like this? I must need to be like this. Then yes, the assumption is that that's the right way to be. And if I can't be like this, I'm either going to try very hard and then I lose really focus on who I really am, or I'm going to hide who I am and then in the end, nobody gets to see me, and enjoy me, love me for who I am. I lose either way in the process of actually trying to protect myself from feeling rejected or feeling like I should be better.
[50:53] Greer:
Right. What's a more positive thought to start with?
[50:59] Eleni:
I don't know if it's a thought in this. I mean, it can be anything, but actually saying how do I want to be or who do I want to be? Would be a question. It's not a thought, but questioning really what I see. Is this what I want or do I want something else for myself? And how am I going to create that? What's the path for me? Like, this is what I see other people do, but what is the alternative to sort of open it up for all the different options that could be there? Sometimes we just don't even know and something feels not right for us and we start to feel bad about it, or it feels like we're lacking, but just bringing in this thought of, oh, is this thing for me? What else? Is there any they might there might be something else there for me. That would be a more kind of curious thought. I wonder if there is anything else out there for me, if this doesn't work for me. And just by that thought, you can just start searching and seeing, is there any other kind of sexual imagery or pornography or alternative that looks more like me? And I might find it more relatable. So then that thought would create curiosity. And from that place of curiosity, one can search and find something that they can identify better with and grow from there, rather than make the comparison, oh, I'm not like this, I should be like this. And then the snowball effect of just feeling inadequate and imperfect and comparing oneself to something that doesn't fit, but not looking for what fits.
[52:53] Greer:
I had another thought, and that was about how our brains tend to really cling to negative experiences more so than to positive experiences. So I think it can be hard if you're a person struggling with this discomfort with sex or with this anxiety, maybe you have had some positive sexual experiences, but your brain is more vividly holding on to the negative ones, and that can really undermine your progress. How can we combat that?
[53:24] Eleni:
There you go. There is the survival brain again.
[53:27] Greer:
Yeah. Trying to protect you.
[53:29] Eleni:
Right. Trying to protect you, trying to tell you, hey, this is not good for you. You see what happened last time. Really be prepared that that's going to come up, right, anticipate it, like anticipate that you have a survival brain. It will try to protect you no matter what. And sometimes it will lie to you in order to do that. By that I mean exaggerate. That's what I mean, lie to you. It's going to make it sound much worse than it is. It's going to convince you that you can't handle this and that you should just avoid it. So I think anticipating that we have a survival brain and it's going to try and keep us safe, it's going to try to make us avoid pain, avoid discomfort, just stay comfortable, and then intentionally deciding how we're going to carry ourselves with love through the discomfort and why we're doing it right. We're not doing it to beat ourselves up because we think we should be more brave. We're doing it because we want to create something else for ourselves that we want to have a chance in something that we think is important, that we want to experience. I think anticipating the survival brain and creating a plan for how to answer its multiple techniques, I think it's a good place to start.
[55:04] Greer:
I always make sure to ask people on the podcast what advice they have on learning to listen well to our bodies. And I feel like part of what I'm hearing you say is we need to, not distrust our brains, but question the first thought that they give us and the bad feeling that it might result in. Could you elaborate on that a little bit about the interplay between our brains and our bodies and how we learn to have more trust and confidence by listening to our bodies and what the role is for maybe asking our brains to take a backseat or what does that look like?
[55:42] Eleni:
I'm glad you're asking this because it might sound like I'm saying don't trust yourself, which is absolutely not the case. Let me say it this way. I'm talking about self confidence, okay? And I'm going to explain it in a second. So confidence is knowing how to do something because you've done it so many times that you believe you can do it well without messing it up, like drinking a glass of water. You have confidence that you can do it well. That wasn't the case in the beginning. You spilled it many, many times, and that's what allowed you to learn how to do it well. Now, self confidence is allowing yourself to mess up many, many times until you learn how to do something well, until you have confidence, until you trust yourself that you can do it. So that's what I'm talking about, allowing ourselves to be uncomfortable with something and to believe we're going to be okay with it because we're going to treat ourselves well in the end no matter what. Okay? Self confidence is knowing that the worst thing that can happen to you is a negative feeling. And that if you know how to process them and feel your feelings, you're going to be okay. It's treating yourself well even if you didn't get the outcome that you wanted. It's allowing yourself to learn from your mistakes and recognizing that having, let's say, fear is not an indication of weakness. People that go up on a stage and talk to others and give speeches, they need to have a lot of self confidence because it's a terrifying thing to do. It goes against our primitive brain that says, oh God, somebody's going to judge you and it's not a good idea. They have to have the courage to tolerate that. That's what I mean. That sort of postponing the first reaction that our brain gives us because it comes from this survival brain and using our critical judgment and our self compassion to say, hold on, is this working? Is this adding to how you want to be in life or is this taking away where do you want to end up? How do you want to be able to handle yourself in situations? If you take this next step, if you don't take this next step, is it going to take you closer to the person you want, you want to be or not? It's sort of like just giving yourself a little bit more time before you make the decision that this is not good for me or I shouldn't do it. That's all.
[58:53] Greer:
I love that. I think you just subtly compared developing, fulfilling sexual intimacy to learning to drink a glass of water. Because I think one of the big myths out there is that people are either just good at sex from the beginning or they're not good at sex from the beginning, and that's just a static state. And so then if people find themselves struggling in the beginning, it creates that anxiety, that hopelessness, that discomfort, because they assume that that's just an end state and that they just missed the boat or something. But it sounds like it's more like learning to drink that glass of water. You kind of forgot that that was something that you had to learn to do decades ago, but there was a time when you didn't know how to do it. And it was a physical coordination you had to develop and you had to develop muscles and all of these different physical capacities and also coordination capacities to even begin to do that.
[59:52] Eleni:
That's right. But you said it perfectly. Learning to ride a bike, learning to walk. I mean, you had to fall a few times and that was not an indication you shouldn't do it. So yes, don't compare your beginning to somebody's end, truly. Right. Allow yourself to just mess up a little bit and feel a little uncomfortable and not just jump to conclusions just give it a little more time. And just from a place of self love, I think it's just everything's possible.
[01:00:30] Greer:
That's really beautiful. I know you said that as a licensed family therapist, your licensure is just good in the state of New York, but as a coach, if people want to reach out to you from further away from New York, is that something they can do?
[01:00:46] Eleni:
Oh, yes, for sure. There are no boundaries and geographical limits to life coaching and to sex and intimacy coaching. So certainly I work with people from all over the US and across the country.
[01:01:06] Greer:
So how would folks reach out to you if they wanted to?
[01:01:11] Eleni:
I think the best place to do that would be to go to my website, which is newintimacy.com, and there's information on that about specifically what I do. People can schedule a 20 minutes free consultation. I also offer a free mini session for people that are interested in developing more sexual confidence. There's some free resources there around how to spark sexual desire if you're experiencing low libido, and how to, there is, like, a self confidence challenge week, so I'm still adding to it as I go. I have a Master class, so there's a lot of information on the website if somebody wants to email me, Eleni@newintimacy.com and for the people that definitely mentioned you and your podcast, I will offer a free session. So I have a Facebook group, Confidence and Desire Reset for Women, that's sort of post nuggets of wisdom, and some information around sexual confidence over there. I think that's about it for right now.
[01:02:32] Greer:
Well, that's super generous. Thank you. I'll make sure to put your information in the notes for this podcast so people can easily pull it up, click on links, and connect with you if that's something they'd like to do.
[01:02:45] Eleni:
Awesome. That's great.
[01:02:48] Greer:
Thanks. I really appreciate all that you shared today, Eleni.
[01:02:52] Eleni:
Thank you. It was so much fun talking to you.
[01:03:00] Greer:
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com that's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast, and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And, of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.
