Being an Endurance Athlete

Tia Wishart is an endurance athlete. She lives in the Victorian Alpine region of Australia, which is Jaitmathang country. She enjoys activities like trail running, rock climbing, hiking, and mountain biking. In this episode, she talks about her passion for endurance sports, how she has learned to sync up her training schedule with her menstrual cycle, and how she sets healthy boundaries even while pushing herself to extremes.

She shares this resource:

Dr. Stacy Sims on physiology and nutrition science:

https://www.drstacysims.com/ 

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Transcript

[00:17] Greer: 
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Tia Wishhart is an endurance athlete. She lives in the Victorian Alpine region of Australia, which is Jaitmathang country. She enjoys activities like trail running, rock climbing, hiking and mountain biking. In this episode, she talks about her passion for endurance sports, how she has learned to sync up her training schedule with her menstrual cycle, and how she sets healthy boundaries even while pushing her body to the extreme. Welcome, Tia. I am incredibly excited because we are recording this podcast episode on site in the Victorian Alps of Australia, where you live and have your adventures.

[01:24] Tia: 
Yeah, we are very happy to have you in Australia, Greer. Thanks.

[01:28] Greer: 
I wish I could say that I was here just to record podcast episodes, but I'm actually on vacation visiting my cousins. Of which you're sort of one of my extended cousins.

[01:38] Tia: 
Cousins' cousin.

[01:38] Greer: 
Cousin's cousin, yeah, bonus cousin. And I'm really excited to be talking to you in particular about your experiences as an outdoor enthusiast of endurance sports. Is that the best way to describe it?

[01:54] Tia: 
Yeah, that ticks the boxes.

[01:57] Greer: 
So maybe you could start by telling us some of your activities and what really you get into here.

[02:05] Tia: 
Yeah, so I'm primarily a trail runner, so I do like ultra endurance distances. So like 100K races with lots of hills in them. Also a rock climber as well. Yeah, they're my main two things. And then since I've lived in this area, we have amazing mountain bike parks, so I've become a mountain biker by default too. 

[02:26] Greer: 
Oh, that's really cool. And trail running for folks who aren't very familiar, what are the elements of that?

[02:32] Tia: 
Generally lots of hills, but it's sort of any running that might be off bitumen. So runners sort of will focus on road marathons or they'll focus on trail events. Generally, trail runs are a bit slower because the terrain isn't working in your favor, but in saying that there are some incredibly fast people in trail running at the moment. But generally it can be any distance from two or 5 km up to hundreds of kilometers.

[03:00] Greer: 
And when you're doing these big endurance runs that are 50 or 100 km, what does that look like? How long does it take?

[03:09] Tia: 
I think it all depends on the terrain. So some people can do a 50K, which is like 30 miles in a few hours if it's sort of a flatter course that doesn't have lots of things to trip you over. Or sometimes a 50 kilometer, 30 miles race can take you ten plus hours if it's got lots of hills, lots of steep terrain, lots of river crossings and things like that. And I think one thing I like about it is the variability. And I tend to go towards the courses and the races that are a bit more slower and technical and hilly because that's where I find my strength lies. Some people are incredibly fast and I'm not one of those. So I tend to go for the races that are considered a bit harder in terms of the terrain doesn't work in your favor. 

[03:59] Greer: 
And you even do multi day events.

[04:02] Tia: 
Yeah, so I've done races that go over multi days where you're running consistently for 35 hours because that's what the race kind of requests of you. Yeah.

[04:15] Greer: 
And it's not like, oh, you run for eight to 10 hours and then you sleep in a bed for 8 hours and get up in the next morning. It's like you're constantly running and maybe you take some naps along the course.

[04:26] Tia: 
Yeah. So generally you'll take trail naps. You try and like in the ones that I've done, try and make it through the first night without sleeping. If you try and sleep in the night, you're more likely to get cold. So I've tried to make it through to the next day and then once you're in the sunshine, you just lay down on the side of the trail and have a five to ten minute nap. And it's amazing after 24 hours how good that small amount of sleep can make you feel. And I think the other key thing that keeps you going is fueling correctly so your nutrition throughout the race is super important. It's something that a lot of people have to train for because training yourself to eat enough for an entire day of activity while you're on the move is a skill in itself.

[05:09] Greer: 
And even packing those supplies and knowing what works for your body can be a tough one.

[05:13] Tia: 
So some people, one thing will work for them and another person will find something works better for them. Yeah.

[05:23] Greer: 
And could you describe a little bit because this is a beautiful part of the country and we've been hiking for a couple of days. So what is this terrain like that you're in and around a lot?

[05:33] Tia: 
There's not really anything undulating in my area. You're either running on a flat trail on the plains or you are going straight up a hill and coming straight back down. There's not a lot of undulation and so significant climb. Sometimes I'll look at my watch and be like, I'm going so slow. But then you realize you've climbed 1000 meters, it's 3000ft in the 6 km you've been traveling. And so yeah, that definitely makes you go a bit slower than you would on a flat ground.

[06:03] Greer: 
And all kinds of weather.

[06:05] Tia: 
Yes, and sometimes all kinds of weather in one day. So when I do go out, I make sure I prepare for the best and the worst. So carry everything from sunscreen and a sun hat to rain gear and thermals. 

[06:19] Greer: 
Oh, yeah. I mean, this literally happened today. We were wearing shorts and T shirts and then got up to the top of the mountain and we were wearing, like, beanies to keep our ears warm.

[06:29] Tia: 
Yeah. And you go from being in full sunshine to being in a full white out in not much time. It's definitely got the mountain climate.

[06:36] Greer: 
Yeah, because it's not only, I mean, you get the heat that you would expect of Australia, but this is also the part of Australia that gets snow on the mountains.

[06:44] Tia: 
Yes. So we live around the Victorian Alps or the Australian Alps ski area as well. So for about three or four months a year, we get snow, which is pretty cool.

[06:54] Greer: 
And to just highlight one more obstacle that you're dealing with when you do these outdoor endurance events, could you talk about the flora and fauna that you're blessed with?

[07:04] Tia: 
Yes. So lots of things fly at you and try and bite you and a lot of things will slither along the ground. Generally, they won't try and bite you, but I haven't been as lucky. But we do have a lot of the most venomous snakes in the world in this area, hanging out, and they love to hang out on trails, so.

[07:22] Greer: 
That for sure affects the kind of equipment that you're going in with.

[07:26] Tia: 
You never leave home without a snake bandage, which is like a compression bandage that you put on if you even suspect you might have been bitten by a snake.

[07:35] Greer: 
Good advice.

[07:36] Tia: 
Yeah.

[07:36] Greer: 
And do you do the trail running, like in gaiters, to protect your ankles?

[07:40] Tia: 
Yeah, in certain areas I will. Certain areas that I know are prone, or if I think the trail is overgrown or more narrow, then I wear gators, which kind of go up to my knees, just to add that extra layer of protection. A snake could bite through it if they wanted, but it just is a bit of a deterrent. Yeah.

[07:59] Greer: 
So I think that was a great introduction to what you do and what you love. I hate to use the word hobby, because this is such a way of life for you, so let's not use the word hobby, but to be clear, you have a full time job, which is not this.

[08:16] Tia: 
Yes. No, actually, not many trail runners could, no matter how good they are, the fastest and the best, still would struggle to make this their full time job. Everyone I know who's a semi professional athlete still has a job and a family at home. So yeah, it's just something I do in my free time. I'm not very good at sitting still and I'm happiest when I'm out in nature and I adore the feeling of being somewhere and knowing that my own body carried me there.

[08:44] Greer: 
Yeah. And I think for people who really love running or some other aspect of that hiking, or maybe they heard rock climbing and that struck something for them. I think on some level, they're relating. But if the concept of these long distance endurance sports is totally new. I think the question on people's minds would be, why do you put yourself through this?

[09:12] Tia: 
A lot of people ask me and the only answer I can come up with is just to see if I can. Which means that at the moment there is no limit, because you just keep pushing and see if you can. And like I always say, I haven't found my limit yet. And other people are like, well, you haven't even found your sweet spot. I do it to see if I can. I find it's a really good stress relief as well. It's time away from screens and noise and you're literally out there and I find it quite empowering.

[09:43] Greer: 
And it's so many hours of your day.

[09:45] Tia: 
Yes.

[09:46] Greer: 
How does it become all encompassing or I guess what is so rewarding about it that you are happy for that to be so encompassing of your time?

[09:56] Tia: 
I think I enjoy my time out there. Like, not every run is a great run. I've definitely had some where I wish I wasn't out there, but I don't begrudge any of the minutes that I spend out there, so I'm lucky that I live in a beautiful area and that I do get joy out of it. And then coming home at the end of the day, you've got this really satisfied tiredness. Yeah.

[10:18] Greer: 
If we had told ten year old Tia that this is what she would be doing in her 30s, what would ten year old Tia have thought or said?

[10:26] Tia: 
I think she would have been surprised she was in the mountains because she was very much an ocean girl at that stage, but I don't think she would have been surprised. So I was always, like, trying to climb the highest tree. When I was quite young, my dad told me we were going to train to do a four minute mile and so we measured out a 400 meters track near the house and we started training on it. I didn't know that at that stage and still to today, no woman has run a four minute mile, but as a ten year old, that was sort of what was instilled in me. Like, we're just going to start training and do this and my dad never sort of said, you can't.

[11:02] Greer: 
I love that. It's so evident how much that sunk in for you. When did you learn about these long distance endurance events and what hooked you into them?

[11:15] Tia: 
So I ran cross country in high school and always enjoyed that. And it's a solo sport, but far out, it is the most supportive community you will ever come across. Like, I've made the best friends in the world through it, so it's not really a solo sport, but I think it was just a gradual progression. Like, I definitely didn't start out, open the door and run 100K one day. I went and did a five kilometer trail run and I enjoyed that. And then I was like, oh, well, let's do a ten kilometer, and then a 20 kilometer, and then a 50, like, is when it goes into the realm of being called an ultra marathon. It's a distance further than a marathon. And so I was like, one day I'd like to do that. And I was like, okay, next year I'm going to do that. And then injury and life and everything like that. So about three years after, I just started training for and ran my 1st, then I sort of found that I felt just as good at the beginning as I did at the end. So I was like, well, I wonder how far I can take myself. And so just gradually I ran further and further. And then I found a 220 kilometer trail that ran near my house. So I was like, I wonder if I can go out and do that. And so I started just running different sections. I'd run a far distance one day and see if I could run the same distance the next day and the next day and the next day. And so then I set out to run a 220 kilometer trail, and I chose to do that unsupported, so I had drops along the way because water was an issue. But apart from that, I didn't have anyone meeting me or anything like that. I sort of set off and I had a tracker so people knew where I was and that I was safe if I stopped moving. But yeah, and even after doing that, I still feel like I have something left.

[13:05] Greer: 
Wow. How long of a journey was that where you were really solo?

[13:10] Tia: 
It's about 45 hours.

[13:12] Greer: 
Wow.

[13:12] Tia: 
Yeah. So thank goodness for modern technology. You can still make phone calls and things like that, but I think one thing that might be interesting for especially the people who listen to your podcast, is that when it comes to endurance sports, the difference between performance in men and women, it tends to diminish the further the race is. So in general, in the 100 kilometer or sorry, the 100 meters race, the difference between men and women's world record times is proportion is significant, and then you get into longer distances, and it's not uncommon for a woman to win a race, like, of 100 miles overall. So to be the first one in the field, just today, Camille Heron, who is an incredible ultra runner from America, she came over to Australia and ran a 48 hours track event. And she ran the furthest of anyone who turned up to the event and also broke a world record for the most distance covered in 48 hours. 

Greer: 
Wow. 

Tia: 
Yeah.

[14:17] Greer: 
In events like the Olympics or whatnot, we're used to seeing ranks broken up between genders. You see the best of the men versus the best of the women. For these endurance events, do they still tier it by gender or is it just the whole field?

[14:31] Tia: 
They've had to kind of adjust because women have ended up in the top three, so there will still be the top three men and a top three woman. But then if say if a woman is announced as the second female, but she might have been third overall in the field, they'll make sure it's noted that she was second female but third overall.

[14:50] Greer: 
Yeah, that feels really good.

[14:52] Tia: 
Yeah, and it's not uncommon, which is really cool to see.

[14:56] Greer: 
Could you speak more to the gender dynamics? Like when you enter one of these and I hazard even to call them competitions because so much you're competing against yourself.

[15:06] Tia: 
That is 100% correct. So there might be five or ten people out there to win it or give it their best crack at winning it. But then I feel like everyone else has set their own personal challenge, like I want to do it in this time. Some people just want to see if they can finish, which is a great goal in itself.

[15:23] Greer: 
And usually the field of participants is it pretty even men and women registrants or skewed one direction?

[15:30] Tia: 
Yeah, so I'd say it's at least even, which you don't get in a lot of sports, especially in later ages. And I think one thing that's really cool is the age range is so diverse. So someone who's in their early 20s is quite young for a distant like an ultra runner. But it's not uncommon for people in their fifty's and sixty's and seventy's to be running the same race as well, which is cool. And I think it tends to be a 50-50 split between men and women, but in some cases you'll have a higher field of women than men as well.

[16:04] Greer: 
Your age comment was interesting. I'm wondering, just as women have more of that ability to do well on the endurance, do you get the sense that older runners are better on the endurance rather than the power aspects?

[16:20] Tia: 
I think it's multiple things. So it's as much a physical game as a mental game, like the mental strength it takes to run one of these races. So I've done races where people who are much stronger and fitter and faster than me have not performed as well as me. And I think that's because of the mental side of it. And then on the flip side, you see people who are very mentally strong, who can just grind it out and get to the finish line regardless. So I think that plays a factor into it, like the maturity. I think it's also like it does take a lot of time to train for these things. So I think if you're a young parent, then you don't have that time available to you as easily. Or if you're juggling, study and work, it might be a bit harder, whereas than people who get a bit older. They have adult children, things like that. They've got more time to devote to it as well.

[17:16] Greer: 
And what are some of your mental strategies during these really long events?

[17:22] Tia: 
Sometimes I break it into really small parts because if you're standing at a start line and you think, I've got 220 to run, that's pretty daunting. But if you say, like, I just need to make it to the first aid station where you can refill your water and get a drink and say hi to people, you can break it down to that. Sometimes I break it down as small as like, I just have to get to the top of this hill, and then I just have to get to the bottom of the next hill, and I just have to get here, and I just have to get there.

[17:50] Greer: 
And then do you get stretches where you're not thinking about what you're trying to achieve at all, but you're just totally immersed in the moment?

[17:56] Tia: 
Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes you'll feel like you're floating on air, and sometimes you feel like you're swimming through quicksand. I feel like there's a film, like a documentary maker who's an ultra runner, and he sort of said, you can experience all of life's emotions in one day by running 100 miles. And I definitely think that's true.

[18:17] Greer: 
Yeah, that sounds about right to me. Although I have zero aspiration to run 100 miles myself.

[18:23] Tia: 
But I don't think you have to. When I say run 100 miles, there is no way that every single step I take is a running step. I walk the hills sometimes. I walk the flats. Sometimes you sit on a rock and cry, and then you keep going. It's not actually running the whole time, but it still counts. And I think some people get caught up in that. They think they need to run every hill or they think they need to set a certain pace and things like that. And that can be quite daunting, but I kind of figure if you just keep moving forward, then you're on the right track.

[18:57] Greer: 
That's great perspective. And I put that next to another thing you said on the trail yesterday about the way that some people do their strongest at the beginning, some people do their strongest at the end, some people do their strongest in a particular weather or, like, uphill versus downhill. And it's all good. It's just your individual person. And I think you were saying this probably without knowing when I was having a little bit of a hard time, I was like, oh, maybe this just isn't my best part of the hike. Maybe my best part of the hike is coming an hour from now.

[19:30] Tia: 
Yeah, and you kind of bribe yourself along the way as well. Like, if I get to the next aid session, I know I've got fresh socks there, or I can change my shoes, or I can put on a fresh T shirt, because after 20 hours on trail, there's nothing nicer than fresh socks. And so, yeah, you kind of comprise yourself a little way along the way and know that just because you feel bad in one moment, it doesn't mean you're going to feel bad in the next moment. And you do go through ebbs and flows.

[19:58] Greer: 
When I get to the top of the mountain, I'm going to eat a tim tam.

[20:01] Tia: 
Exactly, yeah. And I think it's quite a social sport, so it is an individual sport. But I've done races where you can spend ten to 20 hours with someone you've never met before and you still don't know their name by the end of it, but you know every detail about their cat or whatever they feel like talking about at that moment in time, because you sort of keep each other company.

[20:22] Greer: 
And the volunteer network to staff these events is huge as well.

[20:27] Tia: 
It's incredible. Races don't happen without volunteers and the logistics of running a race through a remote course with all runners running at different times and turning up and needing different things is pretty intense. A lot of people will volunteer and they'll stand at a station and fill up your water bottle for a few hours, or they'll stand on a particular corner where people might get lost and put you in the right direction, or they're there to register you at the start or give you a medal at the end. And races don't run without people like that, which is amazing. And generally they're trail runners or they're a family of a trail runner. And I've turned up to aid stations where someone like, there's little kids and their mums running, and so they're like, at the aid station, handing out packets of lollies while they wait for their mum to come through.

[21:17] Greer: 
Oh, I love that.

[21:18] Tia: 
Yeah.

[21:19] Greer: 
And it just expands your sense of community around that. Switching gears a little bit, I think a lot of us, when we were being coached in sports when we were younger, didn't get a whole lot of coaching that was relevant specifically to us as young women and the way that women's bodies have different needs and different abilities and potentials and there's so much promise there, but it's sort of untapped because of a lack of awareness. So that's probably something you've developed more on your own as you've gone through this. What are some of those insights you might share with us?

[21:54] Tia: 
So, definitely training in line with your cycle, so I don't just turn up to a race and start running, there's six to twelve months of training that goes into doing the race of the year that you've chosen. And one thing like harmonizing my training with my cycle has made a huge difference to me. So I used to sometimes be out there and three days earlier I was running on air and I felt great and then I try and do the exact same thing a few days later and I'm running in, sludge; my body, everything feels bad. And I'm sure that everyone has had those runs before, but then when I started noticing where those runs lined up with my cycle, so I used to think I should take the week of my period a bit easier. And every training cycle will have like, four week blocks where you sort of build up for three weeks and then you rest and recover. Build up for three weeks, rest and recover for a week. And so I shifted after doing a bit of research. So there's a woman called Stacey Sims who is amazing. She writes a book called Raw, and the tagline is: You're Not a Small Man, So Stop Training Like One.

[22:59] Greer: 
I love that. Just that line so good.

[23:00] Tia: 
And so I read her book and that sort of put it all into perspective for me. So in your late luteal phase is when you should be backing off and giving your body time to recover because it's preparing for your period. And then I don't feel great the first day or two of my period, but then after that, I can start training. And I've noticed I can train better through my period because I ease it off in the lead up when my body does, different things happen. Like you can be more affected by heat, your metabolism is different, things like that in the lead up to your period. And so sort of harmonizing. That's made a huge difference. And I think eating has also made a difference. So there's a heap of, like, people want to do fasted cardio and wake up in the morning and not eat and go out and run. And this book is just like that might work for men, but it definitely doesn't work for women. So understanding how your metabolism works and how to fuel your body for what you're about to do is really important.

[24:03] Greer: 
You're actually vegan primarily.

Tia: 
yes. 

Greer: 
Do you want to say a little bit about how you get everything that you need through that diet?

[24:10] Tia: 
Yeah. So I've been a vegetarian for maybe 15 to 20 years and a vegan for probably ten. And I'm not a perfect vegan. Like TimTam biscuits are this chocolate biscuit in Australia that are delicious and so I will eat them. But I found it's a low inflammatory diet for me, so that has really helped. In the early days, I was really conscious of making sure I ate enough of everything, but it's become a bit more natural. I think the volume that I eat is probably a lot higher than people will generally eat, so you've got more chance to get all the nutrients in. But I just think if I focus on eating vegetables, rice, carbs, all of that, and stay away from the junk food when I'm training, then at least I know that everything I'm eating is giving my body what it needs. That's not to say that I avoid junk food completely. Like, it's delicious. So, yeah, I think that's a really good way for me to sort of think about it.

[25:12] Greer: 
And the health food is super delicious too, frankly. We've been eaten really well this weekend. And then you do some activities. You were mentioning that maybe have a little bit of a different gender dynamic and also just like the physical experience. You want to talk about your rock climbing a little bit?

[25:32] Tia: 
Yeah. So I think rock climbing, especially outdoors climbing, tends to be a bit more male dominated. It's not overly ego driven, which I appreciate. It's just I think it might be a bit more daunting for women to get into. Having said that, it is definitely changing. But there were women in the 70s who were climbers and they were one of 300 kind of things, so they're sort of broken down those stereotypes. So I found climbing is quite good, but it is daunting to get into. Like, when I started, my whole group that I started with were guys. I was the only woman. And it's like, uncommon to be a single woman out there as well. So there's that. And then with mountain biking, does have a very boys club kind of vibe, but I was lucky enough. So the area I live in has got a lot of active outdoor women and they just have put on women's rides like one or two times a week. And so I've started going to those and it just opened up mountain biking to me completely because it was such a supportive environment. And that has really been good for me. I used to go out and ride with guys and they would be like, just hit the jump as fast as you can and go as hard as you can. And if you fall off, who cares? Whereas when I go out on these women's rides, we'll stop at a corner and we'll talk about the best way to do it. And someone will be like, when I couldn't do this corner, this is something that I tried. And it's a lot more like meeting you at the level that you're at and sort of helping you progress and super supportive. Like, you'll get the best cheers in the world when you make that corner or that jump or whatever it is.

[27:09] Greer: 
Oh, I love that. Yeah. And do you experience some of those dynamics? I'm not as familiar with rock climbing. I remember when it made it into the Olympics recently and there were different types of events, so some of them are kind of short bursts, whether some of them are kind of longer, more endurance type events. Do you see some of those same dynamics in terms of power versus endurance and in terms of the mental game that you are in?

[27:37] Tia: 
Yeah, so I don't really do much indoor rock climbing, which is like. What you see in the Olympics. I do that when the weather's bad kind of thing, but I do primarily outdoor rock climbing and for me, it's similar to the endurance running because it's a bit of a choose your own adventure. You're out there all day, you're pacing yourself and I do what's called trad climbing. So it's a blank wall and you have all this metal stuff clipped to your harness and you put it in and clip your rope through it and create your protection as you're going up the wall. And so that's the one that I've gravitated towards and that sort of makes sense for me because I'm a trail runner. I like the path less followed, things like that. But then there's some amazing women doing incredible things in Bouldering, which is a real power sport and sport climbing, where you've got protection in the rock already. I remember listening to, I went to a talk by Angie Scarf Johnson, who's a female rock climber from Australia, and she did quite a high level climb that was set by a very famous climber. And the moment she as like a 16 year old woman did it, everyone started to say, it shouldn't be graded as hard as it is. And the person who originally set the climb came out and he was like, no, it's just that she's amazing. It has nothing to do with the climb not being as hard as you thought it was, it's just she's done it. But everyone's automatic reaction wasn't like, Isn't she amazing? She's done this hard climb. They all thought, well, the climb mustn't be as hard as we already thought it was.

[29:08] Greer: 
Yeah, and I'm rolling my eyes so hard there because there's clearly a gender dynamic at play there. Like, if a 16 year old boy had done that climb--

[29:15] Tia: 
--he'd be a prodigy.

[29:19] Greer: 
I think people probably have this impression from listening to you that you're just this unstoppable invulnerable steam engine moving forward. That really isn't it? You have your ups and downs.

[29:34] Tia: 
Yeah, for sure. And I've had to really learn to take the ebbs and flows in training. Burnout is definitely a thing. So I did a race last year and I definitely ended up burnt out from it. Not necessarily from the race itself, but from the volume of training. So I was running 25 hours a week and just trying to fit that into a life is quite difficult. I got 100% stopped in my tracks recently because I had low iron and for weeks, and I think it probably affected me for months before I realized that I wasn't able to get up. Every hill felt like hills are hard, but every hill felt harder. I was training hard and I felt like I was losing fitness. And so then I went to a doctor and got my iron test. And I recommend that every woman who menstruates and does an endurance sport should go and get their iron tested regularly, because it turned out mine was low and I need an iron infusion. And not the moment I had that, but it takes a few weeks. But I've just felt in the last few weeks that I'm actually back to myself. So I'm motivated, I have energy, I'm not falling asleep on the day, but, yeah, I've got the energy to do what I want to do and I feel like I'm back to myself.

[30:47] Greer: 
That's really great advice because it's something that we as women, women who are menstruating, are very susceptible to, but it's not something that you hear a lot about or I don't know, especially if people get embarrassed talking about that type of thing. It's not something they would suggest as, oh, maybe that's the reason that you're so sleepy or depressed or whatever symptoms you're experiencing.

[31:08] Tia: 
And to be fair, I went to one doctor and her advice to me was, you just have to learn how to live with this. And so I was like, well, that's not really an option. I'm going to go and get a second opinion. And the second doctor was like, no, there is actually an answer to this. And I was very lucky that I have a flexible work, I have a supportive partner. So through the period of me having no energy, I was okay. But I can't imagine if I worked in a job that required me to stand at a cash register all day, I just wouldn't have even been able to do the bare minimum. So, yeah, I think that it was disappointing that a doctor told me, you just have to work out how to live with this. But, yeah, I'm used to being a high energy person and that was all gone completely. But it's nice to know that there was an answer and it did come back.

[31:59] Greer: 
Yeah. What does it look like after you've completed a big event? What kind of rest and recovery and space do you give yourself after that?

[32:07] Tia: 
It's a bit strange because everyone thinks you must sleep really well the night after and eat a big meal, but your body goes through this weird thing. Like you do not sleep well the night after an event. You feel like you've got growing pains, you're dehydrated, you're restless, you've probably had too much caffeine during the day in the race so that you have the worst night's sleep after an event. And also your digestive system does weird things while you're doing these long distance events, so you don't even feel like eating anything and you know you need to. So my go to is like a cauliflower and potato soup that I make, and then I'm like, at least I can just drink the potatoes, but then, yeah, so it takes a few days for your body to normalize. Like your feet swell, there's a whole bunch of different things that can happen. And then about two or three days later, you are ravenous. So you make up for everything you want to eat, everything inside. 

[33:04] Greer: 
And you've just gone from having this highly structured life around, getting all the hours in that you need for training. Do you fall off a cliff at that point or do you taper down?

[33:16] Tia: 
I think it's important to keep moving because that really helps with the recovery, like getting fresh blood flow, your muscles can get really stiff so just like gentle exercise, like some yoga and some walking and things like that. Most people who have trained for really big events tend to be very relieved that they don't have to wake up at 04:00 the next morning and do a training run and it's different for everyone, but you always make sure you give yourself the time and space to recover. Some people do have the next thing lined up and they'll jump straight back into training, but I personally take a month or two of, like, I'm still active, but it's not structured before I move back into a structured training block.

[33:58] Greer: 
Yeah, and I can tell just through our conversation that this is immensely life giving to you, like, you're glowing the whole time we're having this conversation.

[34:06] Tia: 
Yeah. And I adore being outside and I enjoy sharing with people and things like that and times when I haven't been able to run, I'm like, but what do people do when they don't go for an eight hour run on a Saturday? It just doesn't compute. And I live in a bit of an echo chamber because, like a lot of my friends, I've made through running and so we all do the same thing but yeah, it definitely is a way of life for me.

[34:30] Greer: 
When you did go through that season of burnout with that one event you had, what sort of grace were you able to extend to yourself, to be able to continue doing what you needed to do for yourself and be well there as well?

[34:46] Tia: 
It's a hard one and you don't always get it right. Sometimes you'll sit on the couch for a week straight and just watch TV and maybe that's what you need, but also physically, maybe it's what you need, but mentally, maybe going for a walk is better so it can be hard to find that balance and I don't think I've worked it out yet, I think it changes. The thing with the sport that I do is you achieve one thing and then you're always like, but what's the next thing? And so you might do your 100K, but then you might want to do 100 miles or you might want to do a harder one. So there's so much on the horizon, it can be easy to get caught up in what's next and not just take that time, but I think I've been pretty good at just giving myself time and space, but I know it's something that other people struggle with.

[35:33] Greer: 
Yeah, some people identify themselves more with the process and some people identify more with the achievement or the moment where you check it off the list. Do you put yourself in one camp or the other or have you grown in one way with that?

[35:46] Tia: 
Yeah, I think I'm more a process type of person. Like, I enjoy the journey. It's not about the destiny. You could train for six months and not in, you know, the race might be canceled through COVID everything was canceled in Australia. And so I always try and remind myself, like, it's not the race that I'm training for, it's just general life fitness and enjoyment and well being and things like that. So that if it comes to it and the race day never comes, why? I don't feel like I've really lost anything. I've just gained things along the way.

[36:17] Greer: 
Yeah. And on some level, this has to be maybe pretty hard on your body long term.

[36:24] Tia: 
Yeah, I think it can be. I have a terrible knee regardless, so I was told that I would never run and I needed a knee replacement. And after not running for a few months and being really unhappy, I went back to the doctor and said, like, well, what's left to injure? And they said, well, nothing, you'll just get arthritis. And I was like, well, then I just hope they have really good arthritis treatments for when I'm old and went back to running. So it's something I can't not have in my life. And it does take a toll on your body. Like, I'm sure it does take years off your life, but what's the point of having extra years if you're not doing what you love with them anyway?

[37:03] Greer: 
Yeah. Do you ever think about whether there would be a time that it was maybe more hurtful than beneficial or what like a red flag would be for you?

[37:12] Tia: 
Yeah, I've become, especially with my knee injury, I've become very aware of what listening to my body and what it needs. But I definitely know there are some people who'll see a training run on the program and have to get it done regardless. And you can get away with that once or twice, but if you're doing that for months, then you're going to cause some long term damage. But it's a bit of a balance. But yeah, the rate of injury and running is high and it kind of is the nature of the beast. And a lot of the volunteers that come to the races are people who are injured and can't run themselves at that time anyway. That makes for a steady stream of volunteers. But definitely it is hard on your body. But I also feel like if I sat down for 20 hours a day, that would be hard on my body too.

[38:00] Greer: 
Do you have any particular advice to women who are interested or excited about a variety of different sports or physical activities, but they feel intimidated walking into a very masculine space. I'm thinking about the woman who's interested in lifting weights, but she walks into the gym and all the gym rats are men and they're not sharing the equipment and they're being intimidating. How do you kind of draw on some internal resources to get to do what you want to do?

[38:30] Tia: 
Yeah, sometimes for me, it's a matter of putting in a pair of headphones and blocking out the rest of the world, like pretending it doesn't exist. Put some pump up music on and go for it. Generally, you'll find at least one woman who loves the thing that you love somewhere nearby you or somewhere else on the Internet. We're very lucky to have the whole world at our fingertips now. And one thing that I found in this sport is that women are the biggest cheerleaders for other women. So I've made some of my best friends here. Every group that I'm in, women will support me in what I'm trying to achieve. So I found that incredibly empowering, but it can be daunting walking into a room and being the only girl. I have done that for a lot of my life, so it's been normalized for me. Like, I grew up surfing. I was an umpire for football, and so I was generally the only girl in the field. I played Australian rules football as a young kid, so I'm lucky that my parents didn't put me in a box. But I would say there will be at least one other woman in the world who loves what you love and will be able to cheer you on with every bit of energy she's got. And I found with these sports, they're pretty unique. And generally you'll meet someone and they're like, oh, I like trail running or rock climbing or weightlifting too. We should just be friends purely on that basis. And I've got so many friends, I don't know what their husband's names are, I don't know what they do for work, but I've spent hours and hours talking to them about our deepest feelings and things like that.

[40:03] Greer: 
That's wonderful. So the last question that I make sure to ask everyone on this podcast is, what advice do you have for us on listening well to our bodies?

[40:13] Tia: 
It's definitely a hard one. And in sports like mine, where pain is part of the process and fatigue and finding that balance of where to push through and where not to. But I always figure if I can smile, then I'm doing something right. And sometimes I have to force a smile and just see if it sticks. But that's something that I really kept with me. Like, if I can smile through this, then I'm doing all right. And also, everything must end at some point. So if I'm going up a really hill and all hills end at some point, or going across a river, like all rivers end at some point, so I kind of remind myself of that. But I think, yeah, listening to your body is the best thing that you can do, but it will speak to you in different ways, too. So you've always got to be open to maybe it's speaking to you in a way that you're not ready for. And for me, it's like, if I can't smile, then I need to maybe stop and reassess.

[41:09] Greer: 
That's beautiful advice. No one's ever put it to me that way, and I'll remember that, and I'll think about that when I'm smiling in really bad weather on a really steep mountain, probably back in North America.

[41:21] Tia: 
Sometimes you can fake it till you make it so you can chuck a smile on your face and just, like, hold it there until you see something else that actually makes you smile or you just laugh at the ridiculousness of the situation.

[41:31] Greer: 
Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Tia, for being a guest on the podcast.

[41:37] Tia: 
Thank you for being a guest in Australia.

[41:40] Greer: 
It's been a blast, and I'm so lucky to have a hiking buddy in you.

[41:43] Tia: 
Awesome. Me too.

[41:50] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com. That's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast, and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And, of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.