Infertility and Deciding not to Parent

Today's guest is Catie Eichhorn. Catie and her husband, who have been married for over a decade, are not raising any children, a decision which was impacted by Catie's endometriosis diagnosis. She shared the story of her struggle with endometriosis in the first season, so if you missed that episode, be sure to check it out. Catie has worked as an engineer, a nonprofit business manager, and currently a full time professor of business. She does have two fur kids that keep her on her toes. In this episode, Catie reflects on how she was able to reframe her image of family, and how she intentionally builds community and finds joy in her connections within extended family, her friends, and her church.

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Transcript

[00:17] Greer: 
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. This season, we are listening to women share their stories of how they formed their families, especially when health factors or medical issues impacted their decisions. Women's health matters for its own sake. At the same time, for many women, health issues not only impact their own quality of life, but also their paths to forming families. And many women have wanted to share those stories here, too. For our purposes, forming families means the creation of any home life that generates safety, belonging, connection, and joy. And it doesn't exclusively mean becoming a parent and raising children. I hope you will listen to each story this season with a sense of curiosity and compassion. And if you're going through something in your life right now where you're not in a place to listen to stories like these, I hope that you find compassion and support for what you're going through, and you can return to this podcast when you're ready. Today's guest is Catie Eichhorn. Catie and her husband, who have been married for over a decade, are not raising any children, a decision which was impacted by Catie's endometriosis diagnosis. She shared the story of her struggle with endometriosis in the first season, so if you missed that episode, be sure to check it out. Catie has worked as an engineer, a nonprofit business manager, and currently a full time professor of business. She does have two fur kids that keep her on her toes. In this episode, Catie reflects on how she was able to reframe her image of family and how she intentionally builds community and finds joy in her connections within extended family, friends, and her church. Welcome, Catie. I am so excited that you've come back for another round on the Femammal podcast. You were a first season guest and I'm grateful that you came back to join us for this season because you had mentioned in your interview some ways in which your family life had been impacted by your experience with endometriosis, and we didn't really get to dig into that. So I'm excited to dig into how you've gone through forming your family and the impacts that your medical condition has had, but also just your own vision for what family can be.

[03:21] Catie: 
Yeah, Greer, thanks for having me again. I'm really honored to be back and looking forward to the conversation too.

[03:28] Greer: 
Thanks. So could you start by reflecting on what you imagined your family would look like as you entered into marriage? And then what happened along the way to adjust those expectations?

[03:41] Catie: 
Sure. It's a big question. It's a loaded question. My husband and I got married right out of undergrad. So we were what we lovingly call young, dumb, and in love, now being over a decade ago, which feels crazy. So when we got married, we were right out of college. We had big dreams of moving to this new state. We live two states away from any family, any extended family. So it's just the two of us out here in southern Indiana, and we were so happy and so ready to jump into this new adventure. We both had envisioned kind of a life of working hard. We both went to engineering school, and we had plans of becoming high powered engineers. We had joked about being a power couple and solving all the world's problems, while also being involved with our church and growing a family. We definitely both wanted children and desired the growth of our family in that way. And when we started our marriage, we had every intention to. And there wasn't anything that led us to believe that it could be or should be any other way that we should have children. I know that at the beginning of our marriage, we even talked about if we were to get pregnant and have kids, would I stay working? Would I stop working and stay home with the kids? Would we send them to private school or public school? I mean, we had those conversations at the beginning of our marriage. Just like every couple does. Every young couple does, almost, I would say especially, we are practicing Catholics, and so children and the openness into life within your family is actually in our marital vows. So it's something that was very much on our mind, and we had envisioned in all of our plans. So from the house we chose, to how we saved our money, all had the piece of the puzzle of having a couple of kids. I don't think we ever thought of ourselves as what we also lovingly call the crazy Catholic families with a bunch of kids. I don't think I could have ever handled the chaos that would be five, six kids, but one or two here or there. We both had siblings growing up, and we wanted to be able to have that for our future family. So that's definitely where we were. And it's strange where I'm at now, reflecting back on to kind of that big dream mentality that I was in, in that state of my life.

[06:15] Greer: 
Yeah. And then what impacted that not becoming your reality?

[06:22] Catie: 
Yeah. So as you and I spoke on our first conversation, I actually, within the first year of our marriage was when the first abdominal surgery I had for what became a battle with endometriosis. At the time, I didn't know what that was because they never told me that that's what the cause of it was. But I had ovarian cysts where my first surgery was, actually, we were just gotten back from Italy, so we went to Italy within our first year of marriage. It wasn't our honeymoon, but it was kind of like a honeymoon. And within two weeks of being home, I ended up having to get rushed to the emergency room overnight for an internal bleed, and an ovarian cyst had ruptured the wall of my ovary, and I had to go into surgery to stop the bleeding. And that's kind of what started the whole journey with changing how we looked at family, because that was just the start. From then, it took about five years, five or six years of all kinds of different doctors appointments and medical appointments, and ended up being two more surgeries so far in this journey of figuring out what's wrong with me and managing my condition, that in that time, we had to kind of figure out what that meant for us and what that meant for our relationship. I remember there was a moment, I don't remember if it was between what surgeries. It's very strange because that time in my life, I bookmark and put these stamps in there of when my surgeries are. And that's kind of how I can denote time. And I don't remember. I think it was between surgery one and two, I think. No, it was after that, because I was going through fertility, and we had finally had to have that real conversation of, what if this doesn't happen for us? Because I had recovered from the last surgery, and we had actually started really focusing on trying to have a child, and it wasn't happening. Month after month after month, it wasn't happening. And if you google that online, they say, don't worry about it. And other places say, oh, my gosh, it's so broken. And my husband and I had not had a conversation about where we were at mentally with that, which feels weird to say, that where we're at now in our relationship, that we wouldn't have talked about that. But I remember we both looked at each other and we both had the same thing at the same time, was like, well, maybe this is our cross to bear, and that it was just such a wrong mentality. Yes, it was our struggle, but it wasn't a cross. It was a part of who we were. From then on, it started being praying about not what society tells us we should be, not what our parents tell us we should be. But in our marriage, what are we called to? And having to reframe ourselves around, that was really hard in the midst of not only medical issues for me, right, but then the pain of infertility and the loneliness and the isolation of it, also having to do a lot of internal work about who are we as a couple and who are we as a family was really, really challenging. And that's kind of where it started. Right. And we had to start really doing some soul searching on what we actually wanted from our marriage and what we were actually--we're very spiritual people--so for us, it's like, what was God calling us to? What were we being called to? Not what we think we should be called to. Not what we're supposed to do, but what are we actually, deep down in our hearts, being called to do with the gift of our love and the gift of our marriage and reframing it like that really started helping us work our way through it. It was not easy, it was not short, but it was worthwhile.

[10:30] Greer: 
I really appreciate you being so open about that, and especially the way you're able to recall your initial reactions and then through time and maturity and journey together, the kind of new understanding you came to. I'm wondering what considerations impacted your discernment about possibly pursuing other pathways towards parenting. It sounded like you did do some fertility treatments at some point?

[10:58] Catie: 
Yeah. So we went to the doctor and finally was like, okay, we've been trying for, it was at that point probably close to a year, with no luck. And the doctor is like, oh, you need to go see a specialist. And so we did. Before we went to that specialist, we had to have a real conversation about what we were going to do and what we were going to pursue and what we were not going to pursue. And that conversation needed to, for us, needed to happen before we went to this appointment, because we needed to be on the same page and strong with each other so we could hold each other accountable. When you're in a doctor's office with a doctor telling you all of those things and all of your emotions running so high, and if you hadn't worked through that yet, it was really hard for us. Our vocation to marriage and our calling to a sacramental marriage always came first. That's what we were called to. That's what we vowed to do on our wedding day. We always tried to keep that at the front. We did try some fertility medication at the time, to the point where we were comfortable with our faith and with our finances, frankly, because fertility medication is not cheap, but what ended up making us take a pause on that at the time was not lack of finances, lack of ability, or anything like that. It was actually like the mental toll of going through fertility treatments that are not successful, that was having on our marriage, and not just me, right. Fertility, for those of you who are out there listening, that have gone through something like this and have done fertility, you know that the hormonal waves that you get sent through when you're taking those types of medication are something unreal. So it's not just me, though, right? So now I'm going, that's having a toll on my husband. I was an awful human for several days, and then I would be weepy and I'd be all over the place, and he's just having to be the battering ram and take it all. But then the strain on our relationship and the pressure that you feel put on yourself by this, it was unbelievable. And at one point, we both looked at each other and said, breaking apart what we have is not worth it. We need to have strong relationship, and the love we have here is what we're called to, and we need to cherish that. So the time we decided to take a pause, that turned into, I think that door is closed. I don't think we desire that anymore. After that door had kind of shut at that time in our life, we started praying and discerning other pathways to parenthood. I remember we had a picture. It was from our bulletin at our church. I think it was from, like, St. Elizabeth Catholic Charities in the area where they have an adoption service. They had an ad in our bulletin looking for adopted parents or something like that. I can't totally remember, but I remember I cut it out. I cut it out of the bulletin and we hung it in a place in our home where we'd see it every day because it was kind of like our reminder of, like, we need to be praying on this. We need to be open to this. Where does this fit in our hearts? Is this what we're being called to? I don't want it to be something like, oh, sure, we'll think about it and then we never give any thought or any consequence or anything like that. And so we did. For months. We sat and prayed on it and just really stewed on if that's where we were called to be and if that's what we were intentioned for, something we desired, where we felt our family was to grow, and it never came. That sense of that's right. That peace you get when you know you're pursuing something that makes sense for you. It never came. It never did. And so we decided, well, I guess not. I guess that's not where we're called to. We're definitely the kind of people that are always like, the answer is never no, I've shut that door completely, because we're still very open to children in our life and having a family in that way if it were to happen, because we trust that God will work miracles if that's the way it's supposed to be at this point. But it was never something we felt like that was the right decision for us. And when you think about fostering or adopting children, you have to be all in. The child that's coming into your life deserves nothing less. And we weren't there. We felt like we were just solving a problem. We're both engineers and we're like, well, this solves the problem. Check that off the list. And we're like, that's not how having a baby should be. And it never got past that. And so we chose at the time to not pursue it through that choice. I think a lot of goodness has come and a lot of beauty has come out of our marriage and our relationship. I never say never. I'm in my 30s now. Who knows what's in the future for us? But right now, with no children in our life, that feels right. It feels like what we're supposed to be doing and where we're supposed to be at right now.

[16:13] Greer: 
I really appreciate your just brutal honesty on all of these things because I feel like people offer a lot of snap responses or sort of blase responses of, oh, I mean, just do fertility treatments or, oh, just adopt. And they're not necessarily thinking about what the real consequences of those decisions are and whether it's right for that individual. So I really appreciate you being very specific about the contours of those realities. I'm wondering how you feel when you get that inevitable question, oh, why don't you just adopt? What do you wish people understood before they bring that up to you?

[16:54] Catie: 
I think that people should recognize that that question holds a lot more. I always think that a lot of times people are expecting an answer of we're working on it when they ask that question, why don't you just adopt? Oh, well, we're trying. I feel like that's the expectation almost. But that's such a personal question and there's so many things tied up in that. I can tell you that people I know who are pursuing adoption who are wanting that in their life, they're going to tell you about it, just like someone who's pregnant and wants to tell you about having a child in their family, right? People who really are inspired by adoption, don't worry, they're going to share that part of their life with you. Because just like everybody else shares their part of their life about their kids and their pathway to their kids, theirs is just towards adoption. So the question is almost not necessary. When I was first going through this, right, five, six years ago, we were first going kind of through the thick of it. That question was so unbelievably painful, it brought, in some cases, almost tears to my eyes. I remember there were moments when that question would be asked. I'd have to excuse myself to go to the restroom to compose myself, because it reminded me I was a failure. It reminded me I couldn't have kids on my own. It reminded me of all the physical pain I'd been through, or it reminded me of all the hard conversations my husband and I have had to have. And then the just kind of offhandedness of it made me think, they don't even get it, and they don't really want to know. They don't really want to know now where I'm at mentally and spiritually with it myself. I recognize that as what it is. They don't know what to say. That's where that question comes from most of the time. I see now is when they're posed with this family that's outside of norm, especially being a practicing Catholic who's been married for over ten years with no children. Right. I look very strange, and they don't know how to address it. And that's all they can think of to say. And so now that I can see it for what it is, I can hear the question and respond with a lot more compassion and just trying to grow that relationship. There are people in my life that I've shared very candidly with around all of that, and they can see it. And I'm glad that I was open with the people I had told, because it was almost like this protection. Those people, if they were near me, when a question like that would come, they would almost come up to my defense. And I'm really, really grateful for those friends in my life that have done that and helped me through that phase of pain. Adoption is not simple. It is not for the weak of heart, and it is not cheap. Those who are called to it have special graces, I believe. Special graces given by God to be able to do that because it is not for the faint of heart in any way, shape or form.

[19:57] Greer: 
Yeah, absolutely. And I really appreciate you being so honest about the emotional toll of that question. And I'm glad that you've gotten to a place of generosity of spirit where you can recognize what underlies people's sort of insensitive questions. But yeah, it really is tough to be put on the spot that way that people do. So I hope people listening are able to catch themselves if they accidentally wander into that territory. So I really admire how intentionally you and your husband think through all kinds of issues in relation to the fact that you're not parenting children for yourself. Things like how you use your time and your resources, things like your financial planning and even how you'll be cared for as you age, which is maybe something that people who do have kids should think more intentionally about as well. But could you talk us through the perspective you take to that? 

[20:51] Catie: 
Sure. Yeah. It's not easy. It's one of the things first, especially with financial planning and how we spend our time, we take everything with gratitude. We both do. The first thing that we pray for every evening is in thanks for the generosity that God's given to us. We have been very financially blessed and recognizing that, I think is our first step in becoming good stewards of our time and our intentions and our money. Definitely recognizing that we're very lucky and very blessed in our life to have what we have. Having said that, one of the phrases that really helped me through some of reframing of what it means to be a christian wife in a Christian family was that we are as a couple, we're called to be fruitful. Our sacrament is called to produce fruit. That's what my church believes. That's what we believed. And in most cases, the fruits have names and they have two feet and ten toes and ten fingers. In our case, that our fruit does not look like that. Right? That's not what we've been blessed with. But that doesn't mean our marriage is called to be any less fruitful. And so that's really what we look at when we're deciding where we're going to go and how we're going to grow together and playing to each other's strengths. That's something that we always try to do. One of the things that I have done for quite some time with my church is I teach Confirmation class to high schoolers and it is a huge time commitment. It is a big commitment. It is every single weekend from middle January to beginning of May. And from August through October, every single Sunday, I'm with these kids. And that means I'm not going on vacation. That means I'm having a plan, right? It's a big commitment. There's been times where I'm like, should I keep doing this? But one of the things that works well for us is I can do those things because my husband is very introverted and likes to stay at home and do things at home. So while I'm out serving and doing all of these things here, the only reason I'm able to do all of those things is because he's at home doing the laundry and keeping our house functioning and doing that kind of stuff. So everything that we choose to do, be it my career, I've taken a bit of a journey on my work life, right? Making those big switches, saying yes to another volunteer opportunity or in his case, learning a new instrument because he's very musically inclined, or joining a new choir, those kinds of things. We talk through it together, figure out how it's going to impact one another and make the decision together. That looks very different for the two of us, and it's looked very different over the years. But the ability to commit to things kind of readily is one of the beauties of our relationship. And the only reason we can do that is because we don't have kids. Being able to say yes to something every single Sunday for 2 hours, every single Sunday. If I had kids in school with practices and sports, there's no way I could do that. But I don't have kids, so I can do that. And seeing the beauty in that. For our financial planning, it's a little bit more tricky. I'll be honest with you, Greer, it's a little terrifying to think about sometimes in that we think about what life looks like when we get older. We have buried several of our grandparents. We've had quite a few deaths in our family in the last couple of years. And seeing end of life care and things of that nature and thinking about all of the people who are around when that's happening. And of course, the natural human tendency is to go, okay, what about us? Because we're humans and we're very self centered and like to think about what people are going to think of us at that time. And so we reflect on what that's going to look like for us when we're older. It's going to look different. It's going to look very different because we don't have children. But the best that we can do is to love each other and support each other and save a whole lot of money. That's one of the things that we are very conscious of. We know that there is not going to be anyone to stay in our home with us, to take care of us when we get older. We're going to have to go into a home. Talking with my parents and then talking with, I have one grandparent left, talking with those generations that are older than me, and the desire to stay independent in their homes is so strong. And it's not that I'm in a different stage of my life. I'm very young, but I am not tied to this home like I sense the other generations are. I'm going to want to stay independent as long as I can. But I've also gone through a medical journey, right? I've had medical issues that have taken my legs out from under me and recognizing when I need help. So being able to set ourselves up financially to know that I'm going to have to pay someone for in home care if I want to stay in my house or I'm going to have to pay for full time care in a nursing center sooner than some people because I don't have family that's going to be able to come in and look in on me, right. And recognizing that and trying to prepare for that earlier rather than later, because we're both engineers and that's what we do. We think big picture stuff. So it's really nerve wracking. I think, honestly, that is one of the places right now that my husband and I are going like, okay, what's this going to look like? We're at that stage in our life where we're saving. We're saving, we're building that egg. How big does that egg need to be? Well, all of those decisions depend on it, so it's hard. And there's not a lot of resources out there to help support that. Right. I found one book that's about the child free retirement planning, but I wouldn't recommend it yet. I haven't been real impressed yet because it's not something that happens very often. So there's not very much writing out there about it.

[26:54] Greer: 
That's all really helpful. And I think our society really takes for granted the role that children often take in caring for parents who are aging. And maybe we're starting to sit up and pay attention now as more baby boomers are in that position of taking care of their own living parents while also maybe having grandchildren on the scene. And we as a society are maybe just starting to think about this whole sort of caring economy that hasn't been recognized. So I appreciate your very direct reflection on it. I also really admire all the ways that you build connections with the next generation. You mentioned teaching the Confirmation classes at your church. And then I know you've been a mentor. I know you've been involved just all kinds of different ways. And you also maintain strong ties with your nieces and nephews. Could you reflect on those relationships a little bit and the intentionality you take to that?

[27:55] Catie: 
Yeah, and I'll even take it one step further. Greer. I love making connections with both sides of the generation, so I've got a lot of connections with the younger generation through, I've got three nieces, but they're back in Missouri. And then the Confirmation class, which is high schoolers. And then, honestly, the friends that I've built, the network that I've built here in southern Indiana, all of their kids, there's quite a few of them now at this point, and they're all turning into cool little humans. They used to be the babies in the bassinet that would just come along to the parties, but now they're all these little humans with their own personalities and their own opinions and getting to know them, right, getting to know these tiny humans and seeing them grow up, it's a real joy. And there is something beautiful in being able to sugar them up and send them home like they're not mine. And I don't mind doing dirty diapers, but I also don't have to do dirty diapers if I don't want to. Right? There's something I can giggle and have joy in that now because I've got so many relationships, I'm still the cool place to come visit, which is really fun. I always have been very curious as to why kids like coming to my house. They've told me that they love coming over to Catie and Jesse's. I'm like, we don't have any kids. We don't even have that cool of toys. I buy them at a garage sale. But they love coming here. And now I really lean into that and try to make it a fun place for them to come. And then on the other side of that, I've got very dear, dear friends that I call, very close friends in this area that are in their 70s that I could call up and I care for deeply as I would any other of my peers at the same age. And they're on the other side of life, right? They're in there having challenges with their own grandchildren and things, and just taking joy in learning from them, building their relationship, being present to them, in building that relationship. So both sides of the spectrum. And again, I think one of the reasons that I can do that, and I am flexible in that, is because of what God's given me in my immediate family. And being child free at this point, I couldn't be able to be in all those places and be present to all of those times if I had little ones of my own. I take joy in it and also know that it is fleeting, right? Recognizing that this is the time that I'm in now and enjoy that time for what it is now and know that life will change. That is the one constant, is that life will always change. Continue to grow those relationships and try to be a support for them, especially with the younger generation. So with the high schoolers and the younger people in my life, one of the things I think back to when I was a kid, those adults that were in my life that I took confidence in, that I felt loved by, that I felt supported by. Now I get to be that adult and trying to figure out how to be that person for these kids or these teens. Being in the university setting now. So as you heard in the intro, I teach at Indiana University and being in that stage of life. So now I get a glimpse into students who are in those 19-20 year old mindset, and I get to be a part of their life for whatever small amount of time it could be. Just one class, maybe two, but I get to be present to it and get to interact with them. I get to learn new slang, just taking it in, giving what I can, and knowing that they'll take it with them wherever they go and hope that whatever I'm able to impart to them will help them grow and be better people, be the people that they're called to be. And if they remember me, great. If not, that's fine, too.

[32:07] Greer: 
Your sense of energy really comes across, and I sense this huge generosity of spirit you have. And I appreciate that you recognize that this is a moment in your life, and there will be other moments in your life where you're more on the receiving end of that energy or where those social and emotional ties you have built up will really need to flow strongly in both directions. So I really appreciate that. And you touched on your home and it being such a place where people come together. I've been to your home for some of these functions, and it is a really great place for gathering. And as a person without children, I feel so welcome there and really fit into whatever party energy is going on. But I can also see that the kids are having that great time. How do you do that so naturally, bringing people together of all different family structures?

[33:02] Catie: 
I don't know. I think when the kids are little, I know part of it for me was always just making sure that their parents felt comfortable letting their kids play. So sometimes that means putting away the breakables. I learned that lesson hard at one of the parties because the parents didn't feel like they could even let their kid out of their sight because the kid would break something. Okay. And so at my house, I don't want that to be the case. At my house, I want you as the parent, you as the adult, to feel like your kids are welcome here and they're allowed to be kids here. I do Christmas Legos. Legos are my thing. And so I have like a Christmas village built out of Legos. And at first-- 

Greer: 
This is amazing. 

Catie: 
Yeah, I get them every year for Christmas. And so it's a different little house scene every year. And so now we've been doing, we counted them up this year, I think I've done it for eight years. So I've had eight different 2000 piece Lego sets. I've got the Home Alone house. It's great. But they're set up all over my house for Christmas time. And the first year we had kids over, the parents were like, don't touch them, don't touch them, don't break them, don't break them. And I told the parents, finally, at first, I was a little like, oh, please don't break them. I spent so many hours putting them together, but then I realized they're Legos. And no kid is not going to want to touch and play with Legos. Just recognizing like, okay, just be careful, and if you break something, come tell me, and we can put it back together. But knowing that they're going to play with them. So this year, I told my husband, I go, okay, we just need to take pictures of them before they get here, so when we're done, we can put them back where they belong. Because it's really funny, we call it the tornado, the tornado through town. Because after the party, the Legos, I find people stuck in different places. But recognizing that kids are going to be kids, even if they're not my kids, they're still going to be kids. And trying to make it a place where parents feel comfortable letting their kids be kids. So sometimes that means letting them touch the Legos. Sometimes it means having something set aside specifically for them and giving the kids it. Sometimes it means, I know that all of the kids who visit my house know that the fruit on my table, they can eat whenever they want. They don't need to ask. Fruit is an okay food in my house. As long as your parents are fine with it, I'm good. Eat whatever you want. It just depends on the family and making sure that it's set up like that. And in turn, then the adults feel comfortable being adults. And I don't know that was ever intentional. I always was like, I want to make it like this. It was just something that came natural to me, that, of course they're going to be kids. This is how I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood with tons of kids, and I grew up in a neighborhood where I had four sets of parents, because the four houses at the end there, we could just walk in each other's houses, and it was beautiful, all of us kids playing together. I never felt uncomfortable, and to this day, I don't feel uncomfortable in any of their houses. Even though I've moved two states away and it's been over a decade since I've lived there, when I come back to that neighborhood, I still feel a part of that place. And so I grew up around that. And so it was always just something that came natural to me. And then when we started trying to have some parties and things here, we didn't have the kids, but we had the space. And so just trying to recreate that magic, it definitely is different than I grew up, but different in a good way. It's ours and it's beautiful. So we're really excited. We're glad that people like coming here, having generosity. And one of the things that I don't remember who said it, if my husband said it first or I did, but we always think about generous hospitality as something we really strive for because, especially because we are child free, it is something that we have to offer. We do potlucks where people all bring their own food and everything like that, but we really enjoy throwing one where people don't have to bring anything. You're welcome to. You're always welcome to, but not a requirement. We love just, we'll have everything ready for you. Just come and be and be present, because that's something we can give. That's something that we're able to in our state of life and just really capitalizing on it so that community can be found.

[37:31] Greer: 
Yeah, I love that so much. You've touched on this a lot. But I'm wondering if you have any other reflections just on what you feel like you have to offer that's special to you because you aren't focused on parenting and the special ways in which you're able to be in community.

[37:50] Catie: 
I don't know about any special ways. I think my perspective on just the arc of life is different. Right. I think that's one of the things that is very challenging, actually, as a child free family, if you think about like as an adult. So 30 somethings mom, your life is timelined a lot by moments in your child's life, right? Not all, right. You'll still have your own careers and things like that, but as soon as you are mother now, it's when they start kindergarten, when they have their First Reconciliation, when they have their First Communion, when they hit these milestones. And you truly get to take joy in that, right? I don't have any of that. I don't have anything to kind of almost like increment time and success and growth by, because I don't have children. And so I know my husband, who is much more, I would say, chill than I am. He's my yin to my yang. It doesn't bother him as much. A little bit, for sure. But we don't have that. We don't have those milestones. The next air quotes "big milestone" in our life is retirement. I mean, maybe I'll get promoted, maybe he'll get promoted. But there's not any known big milestones coming other than okay, when we retire. So how do we be purposeful about taking joy when those things come and giving them the space to celebrate things that other people may or may not celebrate, but they're big for us, and that's all that should matter. So things like my changing of jobs, right. And finding that, or I recently was so excited. I've got two Confirmation kids that went through Confirmation class with me years and years ago who are now discerning, potentially becoming priests. I was a part of that journey, right? I taught them Confirmation. I helped them get one of their sacraments and taking joy and just being excited for them and for that time in their life. They may not remember anything I said during that class. And that's okay. I'm allowed to be excited about that. I'm allowed to take joy in that and recognize that and have to be intentional about it. Because those types of moments where community naturally gathers, things like kids' birthday parties or Baptisms or First Communions or kindergarten graduations or soccer tournament championships, whatever those big moments in life where community naturally gathers, right. Grandparents will come and family will come and people have those moments of growing in relationship we don't have. We recognize that if we want relationship and if we want friendship, we have to be intentional about it and we have to be flexible about it because of our stage in life. Like we're in that early 30s and a lot of our generation is going through the midst of kids and kids are very challenging. And every family and every child is different. And recognizing my relationship with this mom when her kid was a baby is going to be very different when their kid is five, when their kid is eleven, when their kid is 16, right. My relationship with those parents, I have to be able to change. Not because I'm different or they don't like me, right. But they're changing. They're growing. And it's taken a lot of soul searching and a lot of therapy to kind of come to terms with that and recognize that I have to figure out how to be okay enough with myself to be able to recognize our community is going to morph and change and shift and that's good and it's beautiful. And recognize that. That doesn't mean I have to be upset by it, but it means that there's an opportunity for growth. I say we, really, it's been my husband leading a Bible study with our church since almost, since we moved out here almost twelve years ago now, on Monday nights and this Monday night Bible study, him and another one of our friends, they started it. And it has been going on on Monday nights in some way, shape or form for a decade now. The people aren't always the same. So there's a few of us who have been there kind of since the beginning. People have come, people have gone. But this little study has served its purpose. Right. And it's very intentional. It's every single Monday, right. That's a lot. But it's this moment in time where it's given tons of people. We say it's created marriages, it's created babies, it's created new friendships like all coming out of this one Monday night group for an hour and a half on Monday nights. And right now I'm really enjoying it because it's new. There's a lot of people who have just recently joined in the last six, eight months to this Monday night group that are, some of them are new to the area, some of them are just new to our church. And it's still happening. It's beautiful. And those relationships are changing and growing and being present to that, just being able to be present to that, because some of my other relationships aren't as time intensive because they've got a lot of kids, and that's okay because kids take a lot of time. And now kids, they're getting older, so there's dance practice and soccer practice and all of those things that kids should do. But now I get to be with these new people and get to be present with those new people and do this with my husband. We get to do that one together. That's something we do together. So it's a hard question to answer about what is special about it, but I think just recognizing that it's different and embracing it, sometimes it's not easy to embrace it. There are days where it hurts being different. But most days at this point, I get to say I'm glad we get to be a little different and be a part of community in so many different ways.

[44:23] Greer: 
That's a really beautiful answer. Thank you. What are your feelings about how your family life looks now? And how did you get to that emotional place?

[44:33] Catie: 
Most days we are happy. Most days we are happy. We are still open to the gift of children and whatever that could look like. But we are not, at this point, really actively pursuing adding children to our life, necessarily. We're not preventing it, but we're not actively pursuing it because our life is full. And I think there's something good in that, in being full and in filling our cup. And I think the fact that we get to fill other people's cups really helps you, at least for me. And that's something that I'm really motivated by, is helping other people and being present to other people. And I always thought I would do that to my children. I always thought that I could be present to my children. But now I get to be present to a lot of other people. So we're in a good place. It took us a long time to get here, and I think it's worth the fight. And it's grief, right? So if anyone has suffered a traumatic loss and really had to grieve, the loss of someone grieving the loss of what your envisioned family is. Is very painful. And that's when I finally let myself recognize the emotion I was having was grief was very freeing because it allowed me to be able to feel it when it comes. So are there still days where I hear a child yelling to their mom and it hurts? Absolutely. And I think it will always be there. I think there will always be some sense of loss. But just like grieving anything else it changes and it grows. I lost my godmother, my aunt, last year, and during that time, I had heard an example of what grief is. Grief is like this box in your head, and there's this big red button in that box, and there's a ball, just this ball, inside that box, bouncing around. And every time it hits that red button, that's when you feel pain. And at the first loss, that ball is almost the size of the box. And so you're hitting that button all the time. But as you grow and as you work your way through the stages of grief, the ball changes size. The ball is always there. The ball is always inside the box. So it's never going to go away. You're never going to get rid of the ball inside of the box because the loss is always going to be there. But it hits that red button way less often than when we first started going through this emotionally right now, I think most days are good days. I love my life. I love my husband something fierce, and I love my two fur kids. I've got two dogs at home that definitely keep me excited and warm on cold nights when they cuddle with me. But there are days where that button gets pressed. It still hurts and makes me sad that I don't have children in my big house, that I don't get to hear the laughter. I don't get to go to the Christmas pageants. I don't get to go to soccer games and take in those things. And I don't think it's ever going to stop. I think it will change. I think it'll morph, it'll look different, but I think it's always going to be there in some way, shape or form. And that's the nature of loss. That's the nature of grief. And so recognizing infertility and the loss of that as grief was a really powerful kind of therapeutic way of handling it. And being able to get to a place where I'm at now and being happy, being in love with my husband, and recognizing, being able to call us family. We're two, right? Just two of us in this big old house, but we are a family, and we are nothing less than that. And being able to say, I need to prioritize my family, right, there is power in that statement. When you don't have children, when you hear people at work being like, well, I have to prioritize family time. It usually means going home and spending time with their kids. I also need to prioritize family time. And it's no less important than the people who have kids, in prioritizing my family. So in trying to empower others, I have friends who are single or friends that also don't have children. So I've been prioritizing calling them family. I go, you need to take care of your family and your family looks like it does, and that's fine. It's really powerful. It gives you the ability to take care of yourself so that you could take care of others.

[49:25] Greer: 
Yeah, that's so articulate. Thanks for sharing that. That's so well said. So one aspect that is by default part of parenthood is having to grow and learn new things. And how do you intentionally stay engaged in learning new things, challenging yourself, growing, stretching within your family context?

[49:46] Catie: 
Yeah. So I think one of the things that in addition to my career, being open to my career, being kind of wherever God wants to take me is kind of the mantra. So I was an engineer for almost ten years and I jumped ship and went into church work and worked at a church for a year and a half. And then now I am pursuing a career in education. If you would have said when I was an undergrad that one day I would be teaching a university level, I would have laughed in your face. I would say, you're crazy. I don't want to be a teacher. There's no part of me that wants to teach, but here I am enjoying it. That has helped me change and grow and being able to make those shifts allow me to change and grow. But I think as a couple and as a family, one of the ways that we really challenge each other is honestly in our travel. Because we don't have kids, we are blessed to be able to travel. And when we go new places, we want to immerse ourselves in wherever it is we're at, part of that will be learning. Because we are active vacationers, we are not beach sitters. Respect to those who love to sit on a beach all day. We cannot. We are go goers. So if it's domestic or international, we're going to art museums and science museums and fairs. We're going out into nature and hiking. And when we travel internationally, we want to get out and immerse ourselves to learn from the culture that we're in. One of my favorite things that I've gotten to do with my husband is travel. And you learn a lot about each other and about your ability to be married when you miss an international flight together. Right. Or when neither of you know the right answer, you're in a different country and you don't speak the language, and neither of you know the right answer. And somehow you've got to figure it out. You learn a lot about each other and you get to grow together through that experience. Knock on wood. We've not had too traumatic of experiences traveling, but we've missed international flights and very emotional Catie and very level headed Jesse have to figure out how to solve the problem together. You definitely grow through that. And then we get to learn from the culture and grow and see if there is something we resonate with. Things about my husband still surprise me. During COVID 2020, I surprised my husband with a piano. Like a full piano. Now everyone who's going, you did what? Why would you get a piano without talking to your husband? We had talked about it before, but he didn't know I was getting it. I had come across a free one, and I had it moved in when he was at work, so he didn't know it was there. I had bought him the beginner books of piano, of how to play the piano. And he comes in and he's very surprised. And I'm videotaping him, and he just sits down and starts playing the piano. I had been married to this man for seven years at the time, and I didn't know he knew how to play piano. 

Greer: 
Oh, wow. 

Catie: 
Right? And now he plays piano all the time. So it's just taking a moment in that I don't want to speak for my husband, but I know through my career changes and stuff, he has seen similar things in me recognizing and respecting that about each other, giving each other the space to grow, giving him the space to grow in his career and do what he wants. And him doing the same for me has really allowed us to challenge each other. Who knows what the future holds? I think because we've had such a shift in what our family life looks like. After my health challenges and things of that nature, we have learned to plan for some things, like save and plan for the future, but also to not to recognize that three years from now, life can be very different and recognize that the only thing I know for sure is we'll be in it together and having that certainty, because it wasn't always that way. Remember, with infertility and going through that, there was a lot of challenge in our marriage and turmoil through that. And now we can see back that we were able to get through that. We were able to get through those moments where we were not nice people to one another, and neither of us were right. Recognizing that we've made it through and holding on to that truth and knowing that that truth will always be there. 

[54:36] Greer: 
Yeah. Well, just one last question. I'm wondering, do you have an insight you could share with us into how we as women can listen well to our bodies and our hearts as we move through making these family formation choices in our lives?

[54:52] Catie: 
I think the best insight I can give you is I think the hardest, scariest part of doing, making those decisions is the hard, long look at yourself. Because finding you in all of it can be the scariest part. It's worth it. Because once you do and you find that part of you that is real and that is not changing based on if you have kids or if you don't, or if you adopt or if you don't, you are still you inside. No matter what happens with all of those things, holding on to that will hopefully guide you through. And that is not an easy feat. That is a scary hard feat to find and come to terms with. And I pray that you find someone, whoever that may be, a spouse, a partner, a parent, a friend, to journey with you, even if you're not meant to have children. I do believe that humans are meant to be in community, whatever that may look like. So it is worth trying to find love of a family, even if it may not be what you thought it looked like even a year ago.

[56:10] Greer: 
Thank you, Catie. I just so much appreciate how open you've been in this conversation. And personally, your story and my story are very similar and it is just so heartening to hear how much joy you take in your family. I love your family and I really appreciate you sharing your perspective with all of us.

[56:31] Catie: 
Thanks, Greer.

[56:39] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com that's femammalpodcast@gmail.com you can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.