Motherhood Supported by Surrogacy

Today's guest is Mia McCarthy. Having navigated a long journey to parenthood, Mia is a proud mother of one who works in the area of sustainability. Having spent many years working focused on social justice issues, both professionally and personally, Mia is currently running in local elections in Ireland hoping to bring her knowledge and experience to ensure equitable access to the infrastructure needed to ensure a connected liveable community for residents. In this conversation, Mia shares about her journey to parenthood, which included several rounds of IVF and ultimately included surrogacy.

For another perspective on surrogacy, she shares this information about a new short documentary from Netflix, entitled "Two Mothers," by filmakers Anna Rodgers and Zlata Filipovic (not available in all countries):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CRxJAgIYtY

https://www.joe.ie/movies-tv/two-mothers-netflix-documentary-irish-films-790944

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• Email femammalpodcast@gmail.com
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Logo design: copyright Darragh Hannan

Transcript

[00:17] Greer: 
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. This season, we are listening to women share their stories of how they formed their families, especially when health factors or medical issues impacted their decisions. Women's health matters for its own sake. At the same time, for many women, health issues not only impact their own quality of life, but also their paths to forming families. And many women have wanted to share those stories here, too. For our purposes, forming families means the creation of any home life that generates safety, belonging, connection, and joy. And it doesn't exclusively mean becoming a parent and raising children. I hope you will listen to each story this season with a sense of curiosity and compassion. And if you're going through something in your life right now where you're not in a place to listen to stories like these, I hope that you find compassion and support for what you're going through, and you can return to this podcast when you're ready. Today's guest is Mia McCarthy. Having navigated a long journey to parenthood, Mia is a proud mother of one who works in the area of sustainability. Having spent many years working focused on social justice issues, both professionally and personally, Mia is currently running in local elections in Ireland, hoping to bring her knowledge and experience to ensure equitable access to the infrastructure needed to ensure a connected, livable community for residents. In this episode, she shares the story of her journey to parenthood, which included several rounds of IVF and ultimately included surrogacy. Welcome, Mia. Thanks for joining us. And I was wondering if you could start by telling us a little bit about how and when you and your husband embarked on bringing children into your family.

[02:52] Mia: 
Okay, thanks, Greer. Thanks for having me. And thanks for the opportunity to speak about our journey. I suppose we kind of were on a long journey that began, God, I don't even know how long ago now, but well over ten years ago, I suppose, when we kind of decided that we were starting to think about having a family and not really kind of considering that there may be any blocks or barriers to that at that stage. And just like anybody else kind of trying and seeing what would happen, I suppose as maybe a couple of years went by and kind of there didn't seem to be anything happening, I kind of thought maybe it's best to go and speak to my doctor in the first instance. And they had kind of said generally they suggest that people kind of wait two years before they kind of consider maybe other options. So went to speak to the GP, then I was referred to our local, I suppose, maternity hospitals here, where they would also kind of do other things outside of you being pregnant for various scans and that to kind of see, was there any obvious kind of reasons as to why I wasn't getting pregnant? And there wasn't. So after kind of a lot of back and forth, I suppose, around that, getting the various kind of procedures, scans, results back after a period of time of us, I suppose, trying again ourselves, then we kind of thought, right, this isn't resulting in anything. So we kind of looked at the fertility option, the IVF option, and we went down that route and we went through many different rounds of IVF as well. And again, no success with some of them. I was pregnant, but kind of lost the pregnancy very early on. And again, that wasn't successful for us. So we went through that kind of whole process that is very grueling mentally and both physically, I suppose, particularly on the woman's body for the physical side of things, but for the couple mentally, it can be very difficult. End result of that was not having a pregnancy and also not having any answers as to why there wasn't any pregnancy. So I suppose we were in that tiny percentage of people where there's no obvious reason as to why you're not having that pregnancy, which is very frustrating because I suppose sometimes when there's an obvious reason, you can say, okay, what are the steps we need to take to kind of overcome that obvious reason? Whereas in our case, it was just this complete kind of void or vacuum of emptiness and nowhere to kind of really turn. Then I did get pregnant again after the IVF, and that resulted in an ectopic pregnancy. So kind of a very serious, I suppose, medical intervention was needed with that emergency surgery. For people who don't know, that can be kind of a life threatening situation to be in. So I think between all of those different things in terms of the IVF, and I suppose I'm kind of going through it at quite a quick pace, but with each of those cycles and with each of the results of it, it's years and years of a process where there's the highs and the lows and the hopes and dreams that are dashed and the kind of not being able to see any future amongst all of that. And after the ectopic pregnancy, I suppose we really kind of took a step back and said, okay, do we need to just kind of accept maybe that our path has been kind of laid out for us and our path is the two of us as a happy couple together, and unfortunately not with children in that. I think we really needed to take a break from all of that because you're just so consumed constantly by thoughts around pregnancy, thoughts about, is it me? Is it my body? Is it my fault? Is it what I'm doing? That coffee, was that it? Because you just go into the minutiae of things and kind of examine things and really try to grasp onto any reason as to why it didn't work the last time in order to be able to fix that for the next time. And so at that point, after the ectopic pregnancy, really took a break and just said, right, let's kind of just take some times for ourselves and take some stock. And that's where we got into, I suppose, before we came back around again and kind of thought about what it is we wanted to do next for ourselves.

[06:56] Greer: 
Yeah. So much grief in such a condensed period of time, really. And I'm just so sorry you went through that and really through a very dangerous situation with ectopic pregnancy being where the implantation occurs on the fallopian tube, so really very dangerous, right?

[07:15] Mia: 
Yeah. And I suppose different, there's different results to the surgery. In my case, it was that fallopian tube needed to be taken out. I think in most cases it probably is. So I suppose after that procedure and kind of the healing, then it made you feel like whatever chance you had previously of getting pregnant, that's been kind of minimized after the operation and after that needing to be taken out and also just the healing, after any kind of big medical intervention, a big surgery that time to kind of heal the body, but then also kind of in tandem with that healing, the loss that you've had. And again, as you say, that grief that you have and just the accumulation, I suppose, of years of that grief, that kind of, in many cases isn't an unspoken grief. I suppose depending on how early or late in a pregnancy things occur, often people kind of won't speak about it so much. But it's amazing when you do open up and talk about these things because it's literally like every second woman you meet has gone through similar experiences. It's just we're all holding this invisible grief and guilt with us and just kind of getting up in the morning and getting on with life, and people are none the wiser, really, on the outside, but we're all experiencing it together but alone in a way.

[08:27] Greer: 
Yeah, absolutely, because of that taboo there. I'm so appreciative that you've shared and really sorry for your losses as well. And I'm so happy to hear that you gave yourself that mental break for a while. How were you able to step back from that thought? It's so hard to turn off the, how will I get a child? How will we become parents? How will we have the family we're hoping for?

[08:52] Mia: 
Yeah, I think we just kind of had to. It was a case of if we didn't, just that mental exhaustion of it all. And you kind of then get to a place as well, where you kind of can't, to use a cliche, can't see the wood for the trees because you're so consumed and you're so in it and you're so emotionally overwrought, all of those things that you just need to kind of--I think it was just exhaustion as well, just made you kind of shut down whether you wanted to or not from the whole process. But in doing that, it allowed us, I suppose, to kind of regroup as a couple as well, because I think in it, too, you're both following the same path with the same aim, but perhaps sometimes in kind of different ways. And some of the things can be quite singular as well. And I suppose the focus in terms of, again, the kind of the medical side of things, it's generally the woman who has to take the various injections, who has to take the different medications. So you're kind of coming at it from a certain point of view, I think sometimes for men in these instances, or depending on the makeup of the couple. But there's kind of somebody who feels kind of quite inept in the process, because although it's something you're doing as a couple, they're almost a bystander in a lot of what's happening. So you're both kind of dealing with it in different ways. But I think for us to be able to kind of take that break also meant that we were able to kind of come back as a couple and see and assess, I suppose, this thing that we'd been chasing and craving and really had such a strong desire for this to come true, really assessing, actually: If that wasn't in our future, how would we be? How both of us individually felt about that. And it allowed us the time, I suppose, to kind of say, well, as much as we probably would be okay, it is something that we still weren't ready to give up on those hopes and dreams of having a family which included our own child. And that, I suppose, allowed us then to kind of think, okay, we've done all of these things up to date. Like, what else is there that we can potentially kind of investigate and look at as a potential option for us in order to be able to complete our family so that space and that time allowed us to kind of be able to do all of that, to have frank discussions with each other, to be able to kind of really see, well, is this what we both want as a couple, as opposed to us maybe kind of individually feeling this is what we were aiming for and working for as a couple?

[11:22] Greer: 
That sounds like really good discernment. Were there some specific priorities or values that bubbled up for you as you thought about what more you might try or what you were not interested in moving towards?

[11:36] Mia: 
I think we kind of almost felt like, did we really have that many options at this stage? We had kind of tried everything, and I don't know where the conversation around surrogacy arose. I think, actually, my mother had kind of read something or seen something about it previously quite a long time before, and she kind of mentioned it. And I was very unfamiliar with the process, hadn't really heard anything about it, as was my husband. So it was something that we really kind of had to go off and kind of, I suppose, read up on ourselves, research ourselves. What was it? What did it mean just taking everything into consideration also kind of in terms of within the country that we live in, what are the regulations around it? All of that stuff we needed to really kind of pry into and kind of fully understand before we could kind of even consider potentially thinking of it as a real option. And I suppose maybe for my husband, there was more a case of as well from his own values, kind of trying to just figure out, too, because, again, he was the same as me being very unfamiliar. Is this kind of, I suppose, an ethical process? Are all people being considered within it? He just wanted clarification on everything. So when we decided that we would kind of maybe look into it a little bit more and kind of think of it as a potential option, our first protocol was seeking out kind of legal advice to kind of really try and figure out the full facts, I suppose, of what was involved in the whole process. So that was kind of our first step after we'd kind of done all of our research and kind of read all about it and kind of got ourselves familiar with what it all meant, really.

[13:25] Greer: 
Yeah. So you talked about engaging in some legal advice. What gave you that clarity you needed to go down the road of surrogacy?

[13:35] Mia: 
I think it was just, I suppose when you're kind of in terms of the research we were doing, it was kind of seeing what was out there online in terms of being able to inform ourselves. But I suppose it's that case of, again, there's so much out there and you're trying to discern facts from fiction and kind of reliable sources, from unreliable sources. So I kind of felt that maybe somebody who had an expertise in this area, who had dealt with other couples would really be able to tell us kind of the full and frank facts regarding the process in terms of the ethical way in which it is done. And that's what we wanted to kind of find out for ourselves before kind of thinking about, I suppose, maybe contacting various clinics or getting in touch with people, just really to be able to kind of have those facts before us before we took any other steps.

[14:29] Greer: 
Yeah, that makes sense. Are there some specific factors that put your mind to rest or that you thought, oh, yeah, this is the right way to go about this? Because obviously there are better and worse ways to go about this, and you do have that strong ethical compass in you.

[14:47] Mia: 
I think in the first instance, it was very much kind of ensuring that in terms of the surrogate who's involved in the process, that their needs were being met kind of first and foremost, and that they were being cared for in the way I would want to be cared for if I was fortunate enough to be able to carry my own child. So just being able to ensure that whoever we became involved in that, that was kind of definitely a certainty and a surety and also, I suppose, in terms of kind of where you would look at. So people go to various different countries, but ensuring that kind of, again, the legislation in that country afforded that protection to the surrogate in the first instance, so that all of that was kind of completely above board and was completely--and that there had always already been a precedence of other couples going through the process there with a positive outcome at the end for all parties involved. So being able to kind of get that reassurance around, these are potentially the places you need to be looking at or investigating where we know that, for example, the surrogates are treated in the way that, as I have communicated, that I would want to be treated and that all of those things were kind of. That there was assurances around that. So kind of giving you that comfort that you weren't getting into potentially something where you felt people were maybe being exploited. So that was kind of the thinking behind that.

[16:18] Greer: 
Yeah. How did the process itself unfold for you? I mean, like, you say, it's probably different everywhere which agents you go with or factors like that, but just sort of what was the arc for you?

[16:32] Mia: 
I suppose it was first identifying the clinic that we felt, again, that was reputable, ethical, ran things in the right way, making contact with them. And then there's various medical pieces that you need to kind of go through again. So similar kind of to the IVF process for people that are familiar with that, but a lot of rounds and rounds and rounds of various testing that goes on and all of the kind of the paperwork that needs to be done as well. So all of that was kind of, that's a long process, kind of of months of months before you even get to the kind of the point where you're close to potential pregnancies. So needing to get all of that done and out of the way before then, you're kind of moved on to the next stage where kind of if all the medical results align and all of the paperwork works out, that you can kind of move on. And at that stage, then I suppose it's kind of more into the conversations around going through the process of producing your embryos and being matched with a surrogate. And then, of course, for a lot of people, surrogacy isn't a given either. Often people kind of think about it, I suppose, people who aren't familiar, almost like, well, if everything else fails, you have surrogacy. 'Go through surrogacy and all will be well.' But there are a lot of couples who will also go through the surrogacy process, and for whatever reason, it won't result in a pregnancy at the end either for them. So we were very fortunate in that after going through all of the various steps, that our surrogate was pregnant with our child, thankfully, and the pregnancy went through, and it resulted in our beautiful, amazing, most wonderful daughter. But I suppose it's kind of to say that, too, that for a lot of couples out there, it isn't always a happy ending in this regard either. That can be quite devastating for a lot of people because often people come to surrogacy after they've gone through every other route. And then to find out that that isn't even an option kind of, or doesn't work can be devastating for people, obviously. Yeah.

[18:34] Greer: 
I think that caution is really helpful because as you were explaining kind of the science behind it, you're going through that same IVF process again in terms of creating embryos. It's just at the end of it, those embryos aren't being transferred into you, they're being transferred into another person, and she might face some of the same pregnancy complications or lack of implantation or any manner of things that results in not a child at the end of it. So it's a lot to face up to. There must have been a lot of sort of anxiety at every step of the way, will this come to what we hope it will come to or not?

[19:22] Mia: 
Oh, completely. And it's very similar to if the embryo had been able to be implanted into me and I had been able to carry my child. So at each step along the way, for every scan that the surrogate goes where, although you're not physically there with them, you're there with them, it's coming up on a certain date, and as soon as it's over, you get the results of what that is. So there's that kind of tension beforehand of the anxiety, the worry, all of the things that any mother feels in her pregnancy. And, as you say, depending on for the surrogate, there could potentially be issues, too. So it's never a given that this is definitely going to result in a viable pregnancy and then also be carried through to the end as well. So with all of the stages that anybody would go through when scans are scheduled, there's that complete anxiety around it. And I suppose for people, because it's kind of that sense of when there's a bit of distance as well, that people maybe think that kind of, you can almost emotionally kind of turn off for nine months and then arrive at the point where your baby's being born. But from my experience, and having been pregnant at other stages, just not resulting in the final birth, when I've gone for scans at eight weeks or whatever dates, those same feelings arose for me going through the process of surrogacy as they did for myself when I was carrying my child as well. So, yeah, it's a very unusual experience to go through. You're in it, but there's that slight distance from it at times, but you're constantly, again, it's all you're thinking about for those nine months until the very end.

[21:10] Greer: 
Yeah, that's interesting. Gosh, you've brought a few things to mind, where, for one thing, if you yourself were pregnant and walking through the world, there would be visible evidence of that, and people would maybe constantly be asking you about the pregnancy, or the thing that's on your mind would come out publicly more naturally, whereas you wouldn't have that connection with society or that sort of high visibility with society, with surrogacy. So people might be surprised that that's on your mind or might not have any sense at all where your heart's really at in that moment. But I was also curious about that communication piece. So was it through the agency that you were getting notifications of, oh, the surrogate has a scan coming up, or did you have direct contact with your surrogate? How does that work?

[22:01] Mia: 
That's very individual for each couple and the surrogate, but, yeah, the official, the dates, so again, similar to if you were carrying the embryo yourself, you get the exact same notifications as the surrogate would in terms of upcoming dates and then kind of instantly afterwards the results of those appointments as well. So all the way through that's communicated to you. In terms of the relationship with the surrogate, it's very much down to the surrogate and the couple kind of as to what boundaries are set around that. So some people will be very much in communication constantly with each other and will build up relationships where they become kind of part of each other's families. So there's kind of that end of things, and then there's the other side of it where people will elect to just have the communication through the agency, and that in most part will work for both sides. So it's very much individual in terms of kind of how people approach that. And it just depends, I suppose, on whatever their experiences are individually, and there isn't right or wrong in any of that. But it's very much down to how you kind of want to approach things with the whole process. But whatever you decide around that, you still are constantly giving the official updates when needed as they go along. So there's always that.

[23:30] Greer: 
Wow. How did you discern where on that spectrum of communication you fell?

[23:38] Mia: 
I felt that I was happy to lean more on the communication of the agency. We had other communications with our surrogate as well, but just in the most part, I suppose I wasn't leaning towards the let's have a blossoming relationship from this and keep in contact with each other after this is over. I was very happy just to go kind of with the agency for communication, but also have kind of friendly conversations with our surrogate because obviously she's given us the most beautiful gift we could ever ask for in this world, and we'll always be so grateful for that. And I can't tell you why I kind of felt that or chose that option, but that's how it worked for me and that's how I felt at the time and still do. So, yeah, that's kind of the approach that we took. So it was, I suppose, the odd communication to kind of check in and make sure she was okay and everything was okay. But again, you would get that communication. Anything where there was kind of any issues around somebody's health or anything like that will come through the agency anyway.

[24:56] Greer: 
And did you wind up staying connected after the birth, or was it pretty much...?

Mia: 
No

Greer:
... okay, that was over?

[25:05] Mia: 
Yeah. And both sides were happy with that.

[25:12] Greer: 
So I've learned so much from you, just listening to you describe different parts of this process. What surprised you about this process as you went through it?

[25:22] Mia: 
I think it was all a surprise, and it was all because it's not something when you set out in those early days, when I talked about the very beginnings when we were thinking about having a family, like, you just presume you will give birth to your own child the same way every other person that you kind of know does. So it's never in your thinking that that wouldn't be you also. And then when you kind of realize, okay, there's a bit of a stumbling block here, but we'll go through IVF. And IVF works for so many people, so why wouldn't it work for us? And then suddenly you realize, okay, that's not happening. And then you find yourself in a position considering something that had never entered your sphere of thinking up until this point in your life, and it's something you know nothing about and something you have to completely understand to come to that point and then kind of just go through the process and embrace that process for what it is. But all of it, every bit of it, as you go through it, even you're kind of going over to another country where your child is being born. You're there in this most momentous moment of your life, and you're kind of somewhere else, away from your network, your family, your circle, other than you and your partner being there. So all of the kind of moments or milestones that people have, even, as you say, physically, people not recognizing that you're 'pregnant,' in inverted commas, you're having a child. So there may be people that kind of, you see occasionally or you haven't seen a long time that you're not necessarily that close to, and then trying to explain to them that you're having a baby, and they're kind of looking at you going, okay, and then you have to kind of go through and share with them this whole kind of story and this process around it when, like most people, if they're pregnant, people say, congratulations, and that's the end of that, and you don't have to kind of go through the most intimate details of your life with somebody. So there's all of these different things, I suppose, that it kind of throws up that just wouldn't be considered by kind of the average couple who just have children in the average way that people do. Even I remember kind of going to, say, get my nails done quite a while after my daughter was born and saying it to the nail person because I would have gone in kind of regularly enough, and she was like, oh, I didn't cop that you were pregnant, and you're kind of like, I wasn't. And then again, it forces you to have to try and explain something. So there's all of that which can be kind of depending on who it is. You don't necessarily want to give details of your life away to people. But, yeah, the whole process in itself is kind of strange because, as I mentioned earlier, you're so in it, but at times, you're so distant from kind of what's happening that trying to kind of marry these two worlds that you're living kind of side by side can sometimes be quite kind of a bit of a mind bend in terms of trying to get your head around it. So I think when eventually the process comes to the end and your most amazing, precious gift comes into the world, at that point, there's just that sense of relief, the sense of relief that everybody is fine, the surrogate is fine, and your baby is fine, but also kind of that you can now start living kind of, I suppose, as everybody else does when they're having a child because suddenly they're in your arms. You are now a family together, and you can start being physically and visibly this family unit, rather than, I suppose, up until that point where people didn't see kind of the visible piece around that. So there's so much about the process that just kind of is still to this point, you're kind of going, God, did we go through all of that? Was that our lives for that amount of time?

[29:18] Greer: 
Right. I mean, really for, it sounds like over a year from the beginning when you've connected with the agency to having your daughter in your arms, it's just such a strange set of dynamics to navigate socially. And I'm wondering, when you got into those conversations and explanations, were people fairly respectful of your privacy or your choices, or were you navigating a lot of negative commentary or sort of skepticism or maybe judgment? How did that shake down for you?

[30:01] Mia: 
Yeah, I think surprisingly, for the most part, I mean, most people kind of you say it and they accept it and they go, oh, that's interesting, and don't say much more. I think sometimes it's kind of difficult around the language. But again, if you have no experience of something or you're not in that world, you won't necessarily know maybe what could be slightly hurtful to somebody. And again, my experience could be very different to another mother whose child is born through surrogacy. But sometimes when people would refer to the surrogate as, oh, the mother, blah, blah, blah, whatever they might say, and there's just something that kind of cuts deep in your core because you're like, I am the mother. It's just things around language that can be very simple. And again, people don't mean any offense because they're just trying to understand kind of this process because it isn't the norm for people. But overall, people were very understanding, interested. That's almost kind of from when we started. I mean, you're talking about kind of four years or more ago now. I think there's probably a shift and a change. I think maybe if you were to say it now, people would be maybe not as understanding, but I think there's just been a shift anyway on lots of topics and issues. So I don't think this is maybe because it's surrogacy. I just think there's kind of that division at the moment between one side and another on many different topics. And this has been, surrogacy has been kind of brought into some of those discussions. So I think things will change slightly. But I think overall, people only had kind of goodwill. And for the most part, it was people that knew us. So everybody wanted this for us, wanted us to be parents, knew we would be good parents, and just wanted that to work out for us. So, yeah, there wasn't any kind of outward kind of, oh, I wouldn't agree with that, or I wouldn't be doing that. But again, a lot of people generally won't say those things to you. I suppose they may think it or discuss it afterwards. But overall, positive reactions and kind of interest in what we'd gone through.

[32:27] Greer: 
I appreciate your attentiveness to language there because even I was keying into, for a lot of kind of social concerns, it's important to use person centered language. So the person centered way, maybe, of describing the role that the woman you worked with might be surrogate 'mother.' But then if you say it that way, it introduces a lot of conflicting notions about what role this person really has offered to take on. She's not trying to mother your child. She's not looking to be a parent on the other side of this. So I think that's making sense to me why surrogate has been the right word for this role in this process, even if it's maybe not as person centered as we might use in some other context. You don't want to say 'the homeless,' you want to say a 'homeless person' or other examples of that. So that kind of caught my ear, and I appreciate you illuminating that for us.

[33:32] Mia: 
Yeah, it's a natural wording because as people understand the concept and just the giving birth to a child, all we associate with that is mothering, motherhood, that kind of very symbolic kind of attachment of the imagery around that and the role that that person plays, and then you as the person who is the mother, but unfortunately was not able to do that very act and then to kind of be denied the name and potentially the role and the status of the relationship that you have. And it's just in that moment and the person in saying it doesn't even think about the language they're using and doesn't mean anything. But once or twice I felt this reaction when it's been said that you can kind of feel almost within your body kind of just this pain or this kind of, because you just want people to recognize you for who you are, which is your child's mother at the end of the day. And I think that kind of goes to the piece around the legislation that we're looking for in Ireland in terms of kind of that recognition of motherhood and recognition for mothers of children who are born through surrogacy, that they deserve that recognition. Yeah.

[34:57] Greer: 
Can you talk a little bit about your advocacy work? And not my whole audience, but a lot of my audience are in the US, and I don't even know a whole lot about legal recognition in the US. But what's the situation in Ireland in terms of legal recognition and where it's moving towards?

[35:16] Mia: 
So the situation is that as the mother of a child born through surrogacy, you aren't legally recognized as their mother. So I suppose in our descriptions, within our constitution and within our kind of legal framework, the person who gives birth to the child is recognized as a mother and nobody else. So in different countries, that would be viewed differently. So although I and my husband are genetically linked to our daughter, she's genetically ours, there isn't that recognition of that piece. Other countries will take into consideration, for example, the genetic links. They would also take into consideration if the person gave birth, they'll kind of take various configurations and have that under the banner of mother. Whereas in Ireland, it is very much the person who gives birth. So you can give birth to the child and not have a genetic link to them, but you're still deemed to be the mother. So fathers have the ability to go to our courts here in Ireland and they can apply for guardianship of their own child. And so within the eyes of the law, legally, they have that relationship with their child, whereas the mother doesn't have--or parentage--the father can get parentage. The mother, when the child is two, can apply for guardianship, but that only lasts until the child is 18, until they become an adult. So you have this kind of weird period of time from two to 18 where you're recognized as the guardian of a child and then at the end of it, your legal relationship with your own child ends at that point. So there is various groups, including Irish Families through Surrogacy, who are very much advocating for recognition for mothers. So to be able to have that legal relationship with their child, it means kind of in instances, for example, if you're in a couple and the husband unfortunately dies, you and your child don't have any relationship to each other. So it would automatically be your husband's family who would in the first instance be the next of kin and legal guardians to your child and you wouldn't have any say in that. It means things like, for example, if you were to go to hospital and the child had to have emergency surgery, for example, you don't have any, waiting on any forms to sign or give permission for anything, because you don't have that relationship. So it would be your husband that would be brought in to sign the forms. If you went to your local doctor, anywhere where the guardian or parent needs to present it isn't you. So you have this weird kind of, I suppose, scenario where not to stereotype, but in the main, mothers generally do a lot of the being present a lot of the time in the child's life and kind of are organizing all of these various things, doctors appointments, signing up for school, this club, that club, all of these things. Have you taken your medicine? The whole lot. And yet when it comes down to it, they aren't seen, they aren't recognized. So there's a push to change that. Also, if you kind of, I suppose, look at more cases that maybe aren't kind of frequently occurring, but occur. For example, if you have kind of domestic abuse situations within a couple, again, the mother in that couple doesn't have any rights and can be very much, I suppose, kept in a relationship because they couldn't, for example, leave the family home with their child and also petition then to kind of keep the child with them because, again, they don't have any legal relationship. So it's looking at kind of all of the potential situations that families can go through and do go through and seeing where then there is this kind of this risk in terms of that gap being there around the recognition piece, and it also causes that uncertainty for the child. So it's not just about the mothers. It's very much about kind of the protection of the children and those children who are born through surrogacy also being seen in the same light as every other child in Ireland, giving them the same kind of equitable security within their families. So that's what they're kind of pushing for. And the legislation, I don't want to get too bogged down in detail for listeners, but the legislation is within an assisted human reproduction bill that is going through kind of the various stages of Irish government at the moment. So the hope is that it is imminent that there will be changes to the recognition of what a mother is. And within that then, as well, they're also looking at various, I suppose, pieces of kind of legislation around the surrogacy process itself as well, domestic surrogacy versus international surrogacy. And again, it's all very much with a mind to ensure that the process is ethical, to ensure that the surrogates are protected, to ensure that the children are protected, and to ensure that the family unit and the mothers kind of are given the recognition piece. So it's considering all aspects of the process, and it's been a long process to get to this stage. But when you really look at what surrogacy involves, and particularly international surrogacy, there is so much to it and there's so many variables, and there's all of these different equations that need to be considered. If you change something in one place, suddenly, what are the ramifications over in somewhere else? So it's being interrogated really to the nth degree, which is great because it means the legislation that is in place at the end should hopefully ensure that everybody is protected within the process. So it's moving through the various stages of government at the moment. As I say, it's moving slowly, but it's moving, and it will hopefully kind of, in the not too distant future, be something that will be realized, and it'll just give that security to families, to the children who are born through surrogacy in Ireland.

[41:25] Greer: 
Wow, this is so fraught. So it's sort of blowing my mind that you wouldn't even be able to, through maybe the process of adoption, be recognized as your daughter's mother?

[41:40] Mia: 
No, there's something, and don't quote me on this now, but there's something within that again, that if you were to do that, it has a knock on effect. So you can't and you don't. So at the moment, the only avenue you have is that piece around going for the guardianship when your child turns two, and then at 18, saying, bye bye, son, daughter, we are now going back to being strangers again to each other in the eyes of the law. It's a crazy situation to be in, and that's why, and people have been kind of campaigning for these changes for years. So where we're at this point is really good in terms of kind of how long it's taken to get here and all the work that's been done by people over the time to get to this point. And so it's a case of we are almost there. There's some questions, let's say some of the health committee, for example, that's kind of looking at this piece of legislation. There's questions that they still have. So there's kind of a lot of back and forth discussions that need to happen between the various government departments and the health committee before it can kind of move on to the next stage. And it's kind of when you start to look at all that's considered within it, you can see, because sometimes somebody will suggest, well, why can't we do x, y or z? When you look into it, you see if you did x, y or z, that would actually mean that over here at w or p, there is actually this negative impact that you haven't realized or even as it's kind of like if somebody becomes pregnant in this country but then happens to give birth in that country, are you ensuring that then they're also protected? There's just so much to it when really you're just thinking of your own little individual family and you're going, for God's sake, just give me recognition. It means nothing to anybody but us. But actually, there's a bigger picture out there. But it will come. And I think--we know I'm my child's mother. The people that I know and care about know I'm my child's mother. But it's definitely, I suppose it leaves you vulnerable because there is potential for you to be in a situation somewhere where if somebody wanted to--Because when you think about it, for the most part, when you go anywhere, people don't ask, are you the legal guardian of this child? And can you give me proof of that, please? So in your day to day, you're generally not confronted with needing to prove to somebody or being asked by somebody these questions, but it just leaves you open to that one time when somebody may potentially say, are you the guardian? And you having to then say no. And being in that position where suddenly you're very vulnerable and it brings up a lot of different things. So it just means that when this comes to pass, there won't be any of that. And then in terms of those bigger issues, like I said, if, God forbid, somebody dies within the relationship, like, where does that leave your child? In terms of the protections that they have, all of that will be dealt with so that your child is protected. That being the more important piece of all of this in all of it, but also then the mother having that recognition that she rightfully deserves.

[45:03] Greer: 
So I'm trying to still wrap my head about one last detail. What's on your daughter's birth certificate then?

[45:10] Mia: 
So on the birth certificates, because she was born in the country she was born in, there they recognize you as the parents. And so then when you come back, on her documents from that country, our names are both on it. And so that's how the father in the relationship is able to get the parentage piece, because of that. And also you need to kind of do various things like provide DNA and all the rest of it as well to ensure that. And because within this country, only the person who gives birth is recognized as the mother, the same transferring of the recognition doesn't happen for the mother. So it happens for the father based on the birth cert, but not for the mother.

[45:58] Greer: 
Is there a separate Irish birth cert or not?

[46:02] Mia: 
No.

[46:03] Greer: 
Oh, okay. The other thing that's blowing my mind, and maybe this is too much of a rabbit hole, but some people with IVF, the spouses who are trying to be pregnant together, their sperm and egg aren't working well together. So some people need a donor sperm. So if you had been in that situation and if it had been your egg with a donor sperm and a surrogate mother, then you would have wound up with a situation where even your husband wouldn't have parental rights? Like there would be no parental rights under Irish law? My mind is stuck here.

[46:45] Mia: 
Yeah, your child will be potentially stateless. Again, so those questions and those things that you're thinking of right now are all of the configurations I suppose I was speaking about that the various departments have been working through. So there's all of that. So if it's a donor sperm versus donor egg, if it's donor egg, but the sperm, like all of these different things, and each one of them results in a different outcome, like you say, if that had been the case for us, then there would have been a whole different process that we would have had to go through and would be very laborious and potentially not end up where we needed to end up. But because it is our sperm and it is our egg, we were able to do that route of being able to have the father being recognized, at least. But that is exactly, I suppose, what I'm saying in terms of it being such a complex process that when you're making the legislation, like, you have to consider all possibilities and eventualities in order to ensure that all of those different kind of groupings are somehow recognized in this. Or if they're not recognized, why are they not recognized? Just being able to lay that all out. Because, as we know, there'll always come a point in time where there'll be some case that, just by the very nature of it, has so many different variables that don't fit into any of the kind of the structures of what has been laid out in legislation. So they're at this stage, I suppose, in building and writing it, wanting to ensure that they're as far reaching as they can be. But they're good thoughts that you're having, Greer, in terms of, they are all of the things that have been considered. So, yeah, the different makeup determines kind of how little status and recognition you have versus how much or a little bit more that you have of.

[48:46] Greer: 
I'm going to pull myself out of the rabbit hole to ask, what do you want your daughter to understand about how she entered your family as she grows up?

[48:57] Mia: 
I want her to understand that she was so wanted and so wished for and so fought for and so desired. And thankfully, we didn't kind of give up at the stage where I said we kind of took that break and that step back, we could have easily decided at that point we just couldn't do anymore. But thankfully we found a little bit of, I suppose, kind of reserve that we pulled on to say, right, let's just pursue one more thing. And thankfully we did in order to be able to kind of get to the point where this amazing surrogate was able to provide us with what we'd wished for for so long. I just want her to be able to see kind of, I suppose, that we really kind of fought for her to be in this world. And then at some stage, we'll start to kind of, I suppose, have the conversations to explain about her mama not being able to carry her and somebody else kindly stepping in and taking over and kind of minding her for nine months to bring her into the world and just kind of being able to talk through that concept with her, to have an understanding of it. She's still a bit too young for that, so the conversation kind of hasn't begun yet, but it will at some stage. But, yeah, that's the main thing, I suppose. Just that she was so wanted and we're so blessed to have her.

[50:23] Greer: 
That's really beautiful. How's your pathway to become a mother affected your sense of yourself and your relationship with your body?

[50:34] Mia: 
I think at a point in time, it just felt very much like your body was this not machine, but a piece, an apparatus, something, a vessel to try and kind of produce something that it was... So, because I think when you go through the stages, like, for example, with IVF or all of those, everything is very timed and very structured and very definite, and things need to happen at this time, and you need to go through this and you're constantly watching signs of things. Is this twinge? Is that a sign of something? This light bleed? It's almost like you become detached from your body and you're just seeing it as something that is needed to provide something or produce something, and then when it doesn't, you kind of see it as slightly broken or malfunctioning. And of course, I don't know because there was no reason as to why we weren't getting pregnant, so equally, it could have been my husband. We just don't know. But I suppose the woman as well kind of takes a lot of it on herself in terms of kind of things not working, but, yeah, just kind of that sense of it being just a byproduct of something that was to give you an end result which didn't give you an end result. So I suppose then kind of not being very happy with it. So I think when we came through everything, after everything our daughter was born, it just allowed you to be kind of more relaxed in yourself again, because you don't have to keep monitoring, you don't have to keep kind of observing everything about what is happening within you. And you can kind of just learn to kind of enjoy yourself a little bit more and be kind of relaxed. And again, not that sense of like, should I be eating this? Should I be stretching? Should I be moving? There was a time when I miscarried, and just before it, I kind of reached up and put a potted plant up on a shelf. And afterwards, then you think, oh, my God, was it me lifting that? And it was light and it wasn't high. A really simple task that you do, but everything that you would do, you're kind of going, oh, my God, is it because I did this or that? And it just becomes wearing and mentally kind of just exhausting. So I think now I've come back into my body again and comfortable in it, and the sense of being able to move freely and not kind of monitor and observe everything has just been a release on the mind. I suppose.

[52:55] Greer: 
That's good to hear that you were able to let go of some of that hypervigilance because it's really both your mind and your body that need healing after everything you went through. One last question, if you would allow. I'm wondering, is there an insight that you could share with us into how we as women can listen well to our bodies and our hearts as we move through making these family formation choices in our lives?

[53:23] Mia: 
I think we need to listen to ourselves is kind of the bottom line. We're so in tune with our bodies, but I think often we kind of hand them over to cold, kind of often what seems uncaring, kind of medical process and kind of we're nearly dehumanized and kind of, I suppose what we're going through, it isn't really recognized in terms of, I suppose, the sense of grief that people have and the loss that they have that you kind of just have to get back up and go again and go again and go again and often kind of with no really definitive answer as to, well, why did it not happen the last time? I think when it comes to women's health, there seems to be kind of this understanding that you will get answers that will be really vague. You may not get any answers. And kind of you just need to almost accept that. I don't think there are other areas of health where necessarily the vagueness of diagnoses or the vagueness of medical interventions not working that that would be as accepted as much. And I think we need to kind of speak more on these women specific issues and kind of demand better, I suppose, really. Like, I think back now to kind of the IVF process and how we went through it so many times and how there was no diagnosis at the end, but there has to be something. There's some reason as to why this isn't happening and kind of saying, oh, there doesn't really seem to be a reason, but try again. It just kind of isn't good enough. So I think, yeah, when it comes to kind of women's health and women's specific kind of areas of health that we're often fobbed off a little bit and we maybe need to kind of push back a bit more and not kind of accept that. That's easy to say, but when you're in the middle of something, and again, when you're kind of the mental exhaustion and physical exhaustion, sometimes it's very difficult to advocate for yourself and you kind of need somebody else to do that. But I think where we can do, and even if it isn't for us, if it's for somebody else, where we can kind of push and demand kind of a bit better in all of that, we should try where we can.

[55:46] Greer: 
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Mia, and thanks for sharing your story. It's a story that we don't hear very often. And so I think it's been really helpful for people to hear your perspective and everything you went through and also everything you've been gifted with in your daughter.

[56:04] Mia: 
Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to share it with you today.

[56:15] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com. That's femammalpodcast@gmail.com you can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.